John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 70: To ask the Minister for Transport the public transport operators that are ready to facilitate the introduction of integrated ticketing in the Dublin area; the reason for the delay in the outstanding carriers becoming operable; and the expected timeframe for completion. [16283/06]

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 83: To ask the Minister for Transport his views on whether the amount spent on delivering integrated ticketing to date has represented value for money; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16207/06]

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 130: To ask the Minister for Transport when fully integrated ticketing will operate on all Dublin public transport; if the delivery of integrated ticketing will continue to be managed by the RPA; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16208/06]

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to take Questions Nos. 70, 83 and 130 together.

The Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, is the statutory body responsible for the delivery of a national multi-operator system of integrated public transport ticketing using smartcard technology. The RPA is introducing the system on a phased basis in line with international experience in the Dublin area initially and with the involvement of public transport providers. As part of the phased introduction of smartcard-based integrated ticketing, Morton's Coaches, in conjunction with the RPA and as a proof of concept, successfully launched smartcards on its services in April 2004.

Another step was taken in March 2005 with the launch of smartcards on Luas services. The Luas smartcard deployment continues to help in obtaining important feedback from passengers and provide operational experience for the next stage of integrated ticketing. More than 11,000 smartcards have been purchased to date for use on Luas services. In addition, both Dublin Bus and Irish Rail continue to offer existing bus-rail ticketing arrangements. Both companies are also developing plans to introduce smartcard technology and have been requested to pursue the matter on the standards and requirements of the RPA. They also have tickets that integrate with Luas services.

Following an inconclusive procurement procedure in 2005, the RPA, in consultation with the different State and private transport providers, in particular Dublin Bus, has presented proposals to my Department for a revised implementation plan and budget with associated time frames. These proposals and the amount spent to date are currently the subjects of examination in my Department. I expect to reach decisions on the next steps in the matter in coming weeks with regard to the outcome of a peer review of the project, which has been requested by my Department. This review is being undertaken in accordance with Department of Finance guidelines designed to ensure better value for money for public expenditure and ICT projects.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Would the Minister agree that it is remarkable that 12 years after the original Dublin transportation initiative report in May 1994 set out the clear recommendation to move towards integrated ticketing as soon as possible, we have no effective integrated ticketing? Is this not a sign of remarkable failure on the part of this Government after nine years in power?

Would the Minister also agree that instead of following the recommendation to request other operators to provide assistance to the RPA in this matter, international experience shows that the only effective way to get proper integration is by effective regulation, wherein a body, be it the Dublin Transportation Office, RPA or Department, told the agencies that they must integrate? Is it not the case that the blocking agencies in developing integrated ticketing have, to a large extent, been the public transport bodies in this city, be they Dublin Bus, Irish Rail or others? I want the Minister to comment on this matter directly. If he believes this is the case for whatever reason, such as commercial rivalry or the agencies' fears about confidentiality, is it not incumbent on his Department to start taking real action and enforce the recommendation set out 12 years ago in the Dublin transportation initiative plan? Why have we failed for 12 years? Why is the Government still just requesting and not ordering proper integration?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy is right in that the full legal mandate for delivering integrated ticketing was given to the RPA. It has made substantial progress in the introduction of a smartcard that operates on Luas services and a private sector coach company, Morton's Coaches. I have held numerous discussions with the other public transport operators in Dublin to try to bring about a resolution in this issue. It has been very frustrating. Some of the practices involved have been unacceptable. I have asked that a peer review of the project be carried out under the Department of Finance's guideline rules, which is currently taking place. When it has been completed, I will decide on the next step. That is the current position.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I understand the Morton's Coaches initiative has more or less collapsed and I know the Railway Procurement Agency had difficulties in recruiting someone to provide the schemes as envisaged. However, the main difficulty is the obstruction being provided by the State public transport companies which do not wish to participate or co-operate in any way with either other State operators, such as Luas, or private operators. It is unacceptable that they should hold the public to ransom because, effectively, they are performing the function of the Government.

The Minister must step in and the only way to deal with this is to put in place a regulator who will knock heads together and insist on how these bodies should perform. The last person to be considered in this regard is the consumer. While the providers are being looked after, the poor hapless people who try to commute cannot get any kind of integrated ticketing system.

Some €16 million has already been spent on this project already and we are still without a system.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is less than that amount.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I understand that Dublin Bus is not in favour of integrated ticketing or, if there is to be such a system, it wishes to operate it. This is not acceptable and it obliges the Minister to take the initiative and to knock heads together. There should be no more reviews or reports. If we are serious about making the kind of investment envisaged in Transport 21, facilities of this kind must be provided. It is absurd to suggest that the taxpayer would make the kind of investment in public transport that is envisaged without ending up with an integrated system featuring integrated ticketing.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As for knocking heads together, I assure the Deputy that I doubt whether many bones remain to be cracked on this issue. This is an important project because with the advent of the metro and Luas, integrated ticketing has significant positive potential, major cost implications as well as major design implications for stations, etc. Hence, this is a serious and very important issue, which is why I have asked for a peer review. As I should receive the results within a few weeks, it will not be a long process.

The work done to date was valuable and from a perspective of some distance, it was money well spent. The real question is how to proceed to the full-on, smart card integrated system for all modes of transport that is required for Dublin. Some years ago, it was decided to opt for the latest smart card technology. While people continue to show me old-style metal magnetic strip tickets, they are not holistic smart card integrated transport tickets like those which I wish to develop. However, I do not disagree with many of the sentiments expressed.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The public finds it hard to understand how it has not been possible to introduce integrated ticketing.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy's colleagues have explained it well.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is not rocket science. Tens of millions have already been spent and a timeframe of at least five years before it will be close to introduction has been mentioned. The Minister must take charge of the situation. Does he accept it was a mistake to give this task to the RPA given that it had no experience in network management? The criticism of its work to date is that it has over-specified the tender. It was obliged to buy in a major amount of expertise because it was not available in-house. The tender process has now been aborted and we are almost back to square one. This is a major problem. When will the Minister take charge? When can we expect to get value for money and when will we get integrated ticketing?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy is to be congratulated on receiving an exceptionally good briefing from Dublin Bus. That is the message which it has attempted to present to me for some time. However, there is no benefit to the customer in playing the blame game as an integrated ticketing system is required. I have had more meetings on this issue than on any other subject and it has been a source of deep frustration. I am not prepared to spend any more money on it until I can be sure, on behalf of the taxpayer, that this system will be put in place and that value for money is secured. I have an open mind on the money which has been spent to date. It is good and bankable.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have nothing to show for it.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The question is how to take the project forward, given the advent of all the different modes of transport available under Transport 21. It has major cost and design implications for stations etc., and for the integration of Luas and the metro in Dublin. This must be at the forefront. We may now have a methodology whereby all see the reality and value in a fully operational smart card integrated system.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is apportioning the blame for some of the delays on the public transport companies such as Dublin Bus. In that context, how can the Minister state, in response to my question earlier, that the RPA had sufficient power under the regulations? If it had such sufficient power, why did it not enforce such power with Dublin Bus if it did not co-operate?

The Minister stated that some practices that went on were unacceptable. Will he provide details of what he meant about how some of the operators related to this issue? For clarification, is the peer review group of the project being carried out by the Department of Finance? Was it requested by that Department? What prompted it to carry out such a review and when will it be completed?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy may recall that the peer review group was established in the wake of the PPARS issue. My Department, rather than the Department of Finance, asked for this review to be carried out. We asked it to review the project to establish the current position. I should have the results of that review within the next few weeks. I hope it will provide a map of the way forward.

I said in my reply that the Department brought in an external expert to consider the status of the project. I saw a very interesting presentation as to its significance. Having seen the external expert's presentation, I believe that no one knew what they were talking about. Everyone concentrated on one issue, namely, the card. However, in terms of a fully operational integrated smart card system, some six or seven issues must be addressed. As far as I can gather, only one issue was being addressed. Significant fundamental issues about moneys, transfers and other governance issues were not addressed. This brought certain concerns home to me in terms of going forward. While I hope the review group will provide me with its views on the next step as far as the technology is concerned, carrying on as we are at present will not deliver the type of smart card technology or an integrated ticketing system that the public deserves.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I call Question No. 71.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister leave it with the RPA?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Did no one know what they were talking about? If no one did, is it not the Minister's job to sort it out?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I may have other options.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We should turn to Question No. 71.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No one knew what they were talking about.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes. It is interesting. Everyone focused on a single issue, namely, the card.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister has spoken about pulling everything together.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I found out about this because I pulled everyone together.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Did no one know what they were talking about for 12 years?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I can only answer for the time when I had responsibility. I seem continually to answer for what other people did in their time in other Departments and taking the blame for it. However, I am dealing with this issue, even though it was not originally put together by me.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We should move to Question No. 71.