Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the issue of the efficiency or inefficiency of the driving tester system, I begin by wishing Mr. Gay Byrne the best of luck in his appointment as chairman of the Road Safety Authority. I thank Mr. Eddie Shaw for his services as chief executive. I wish the chief executive designate Mr. Noel Brett every success in an absolutely critical area. Mr. Byrne has rightly identified as an immediate priority the scandal of 400,000 people driving with provisional driving licences, which means that one in five drivers on the roads have not successfully completed a driving test. It is obviously critical to the economy, our social fabric and to the country that an effective and efficient driver testing system be in operation.

It is scandalous that 130,500 people are now waiting on average 32 weeks to take a driving test. The delay varies from place to place: in Portlaoise it is 63 weeks, in Raheny it is 58 weeks and in Wicklow it is 50 weeks. Obviously driver testing is rightly a fundamental part of the Government's road safety programme. According to the Department of Transport, the backlog is due to a surge in applications between December 2000 and March 2003. The Government has identified outsourcing as a solution to the problem, which would be especially effective if the work were done during the summer months when the days are longer and more time is available. However, because of a clause in the Sustaining Progress agreement, outsourcing to deal with the inefficiency of the driver testing system is prohibited.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach agree fundamentally that the current situation is unsustainable, that the Government must do something about it and that outsourcing is the one and only method to address the problem effectively? This means that the constraint in Sustaining Progress must be overcome. How does the Government intend to address the problem of 400,000 people driving with provisional licences and 130,500 people waiting for driving tests? An average of 50,000 young people aged between 18 and 20 come on stream each year, most of whom will apply for driving licences. How does the Taoiseach propose to deal with this fundamentally important issue, identified by Mr. Byrne yesterday, when he said he would walk away from the job if the matter was not addressed effectively by Government?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The driver-testing backlog is totally unacceptable and must be eliminated as quickly as possible. Each additional month that it takes has a negative impact on road safety. Driver-testing and road safety are directly linked as we have said time and time again and I have said it here. The problem is not just an industrial relations one. It affects people's lives as well. As Deputy Kenny knows the arbitration board in its adjudication pointed out repeatedly that it was not concerned with the merits of the dispute as to how the backlog of driving tests should be solved. However, it felt its continuance represented a potential threat to road safety and the board urged a resumption of discussions at which all opinions — it emphasised all opinions — should be considered with a view to ensuring that a solution is implemented without delay.

The Minister for Transport has gone to exceptional lengths to maximise the contribution that can be made by reducing this problem in the existing system and to try to use existing staff to the maximum. Despite bonus payments, additional recruitments and redeployment of existing civil servants, the backlog cannot be cleared quickly enough. In answer to the Deputy's point, I can see no alternative to contracting for extra resources on a temporary basis. In that context, I want to support the acknowledgement by the Minister for Transport that the staff of the Department, including the public servants who work in the Road Safety Authority, will continue to be the backbone of the service. Nobody is trying to dismantle or discontinue the service. The staff in question represent the backbone and the front line of the service. While they do the job as best they can, they cannot deal with the numbers which exist at present. In this case, the contracting of staff resources has been proposed as a temporary measure. The Minister does not intend to replace the existing staff by assigning their work to other people. There have been discussions between the Minister for Transport and the driver testing unions. The unions have been engaging with the Minister over the last week. The Minister has told me he hopes a satisfactory outcome will be reached. I acknowledge that the unions have engaged actively in the process of trying to find a resolution, even after the arbitration board issued its determination.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is this not a case of the Government being unable to govern in the interests of the greater public? Will the Taoiseach assure the House he will ask the unions for an immediate derogation in respect of Sustaining Progress so this matter can be dealt with? I am quite sure everyone involved in the trade union movement is anxious to ensure human lives are saved on our roads. This matter cannot be dealt with at present because the proposed changes to the system are prohibited under Sustaining Progress.

The Government is unable to deal with a problem that has been identified. Some 400,000 people are driving on provisional licences. Some 130,000 people are waiting for driving tests. The Bacon report and the Goodbody report of 2001 measured the cost of the loss of one life on the roads as €2.8 million, when matters such as education, allowances and training are taken into account. The country will lose 35 years of productivity if a person unfortunately and tragically dies in a road accident at the age of 30. Over the next ten years, we need an additional 40,000 workers per year to keep the economy ticking over.

The implications of the Government's failure to take action in this regard are fourfold. First, some 400,000 people who do not have full licences have to pay extra insurance premiums, amounting to €23 million per annum. Second, many people cannot take up employment because they do not have full licences. Third, a social stigma is associated with not being deemed to be a qualified driver. Fourth, the inability of the system to deliver means that thousands of inexperienced drivers of all ages are on our roads.

The IT system that has been operating in Ballina since 1989 is a disgrace because it is unable to cope with this system. This fundamental health and safety issue is of importance in people's lives. The Government is unable to deliver, in the interests of consumers, an efficient and professional system of training and testing those who give certificates of competency to drivers. The employees of the outsourced contractor have been trained and are ready to work in this area. Will the Taoiseach seek an immediate derogation from the unions, under Sustaining Progress, to relieve the pressure in this area? Such action is needed if we are to reduce the waiting times of the 130,000 people who are waiting for driving tests and take action in respect of the 400,000 drivers who do not have full licences.

In this country, 11 people per 100,000 die on the roads, unfortunately. If we were in line with international best practice, just six people per 100,000 would die on the roads. If we could reduce this country's level of road deaths to that level, some 130 lives would be saved each year. In this instance, the Taoiseach should govern in the public interest.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I have said previously, if just one person dies on the roads, that is one person too many. Some 399 people died on the roads last year, which is several hundred less than the number of people who died when there was a fraction of the current amount of vehicles on the roads. That does not detract from the Government's desire to minimise the number of people dying on the roads.

It is not a question of a derogation from Sustaining Progress. I think everybody on the union, staff and Government sides was surprised by the interpretation of the arbitration board in its findings. The Deputy has asked the Minister to engage with the trade union and staff sides to try to reach a resolution to this problem. The Government is already engaged in such discussions. I appreciate the willingness of the staff side to do that.

I think every public servant is in favour of increased flexibility in working arrangements and the elimination of rigidities and restrictive practices, with a view to enhancing the efficiency and effectiveness of the public service, which are among the central themes in the modernisation of that service. I emphasise that the Minister is not trying to remove the driver testing service from the public service or abolish the jobs of the staff who have worked hard in the driver testing area over many years. The high numbers of learner drivers and people who want to do the driving test mean we need to introduce an outside contractor, at least in the short term. As Deputy Kenny said, a contractor is aware of the discussions which have taken place in recent years and is ready to operate in this area. We have engaged, in the interests of good industrial relations, with the fairly long process that has been a feature of this issue. We understand that we have to follow the system for dealing with public servants, even if it takes a long time.

We have tried to do everything we can to address the difficulty we are facing. As I have said, the Minister has gone to exceptional lengths to maximise what can be done within the system. We cannot deal with the problem within the system. We need to out-source and contract. We have the capacity and resources to do that, even on a temporary basis. We need to reach a conclusion in respect of industrial relations and we are trying to do that. We do not want to act in an arbitrary way as that would not be in the interests of good industrial relations practices. We will try to make progress. We are pleased that the unions have engaged with us in trying to reach a quick resolution to this problem.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Just when most law-abiding citizens felt this country's crime problem could not get worse after the killing of Ms Donna Cleary some weeks ago, there was an extraordinary drive-by shooting on the M50 on Sunday morning. People could not believe that rival gangs could engage in such a shoot-out at dawn on a busy motorway. Most citizens are in disbelief that somebody — possibly an innocent motorist — was not killed, just when they thought things could not get any worse. It seems that young thugs are visiting nightclubs in flak jackets, with deadly weapons stowed away in high-powered vehicles which they have secured from their ill-gotten gains. They are prepared to risk a shoot-out on a busy motorway because they know the chances of being detected or convicted are minimal. It should be borne in mind, in this context, that Deputy O'Donoghue told the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis on 21 April 1997, a couple of months before he became Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that "for Fianna Fáil there is no acceptable level of crime".

The Taoiseach will appreciate that the serious crime to which I refer is being fuelled by the drugs racket. That is what is really behind most of the serious crime we are experiencing. Cocaine-crazed young thugs are prepared to regard human life as expendable so they can get their hands on the lucrative and obscene wealth that comes from the drugs racket which is plaguing and ravaging many communities in Dublin and elsewhere. What is the Garda Síochána's response to this problem? Is the intelligence that is available to the force defective? Is the Garda looking for more powers? Is it looking for more resources? Does the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, understand not only that he has political accountability in this House for the law, but also that he has political accountability in the House for the Garda? I remind the Taoiseach of a statement made in the House on 27 June 1995 by the current Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue:

In every county old people spend sleepless nights in fear of marauding intruders. In every house parents are increasingly and justifiably in fear of the free availability of drugs. On every street of every town and village people walk in fear of crime. Our streets have been taken from us by criminals. They rule by threat, intimidation and force.

It was not true then, but sadly one can only come to the conclusion that it is true now.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As regards the incident, at 4.30 a.m. on 26 March a shooting occurred between the M50 motorway and the Lucan road. A car containing five passengers, two male and three female, had several shots fired at it. Two of the passengers were wearing bullet-proof vests. The driver of the car received a flesh wound to the elbow and was brought to hospital. He was reluctant to stay and discharged himself. He declined to make any comment. He had sustained gunshot wounds just two weeks previously on a Saturday morning in the Finglas area. He also declined to make a comment at that stage. The other four passengers in the car have made voluntary statements. The scene was preserved and a search was conducted of a section of the M50 to locate anything of evidential value.

Deputy Rabbitte knows and correctly said that where this gang of thugs is concerned, most of this has to do with drugs. They are probably involved in other areas of crime as well. The Garda has been actively involved against them for a considerable time. Significant resources have been deployed on Operation Anvil in terms of numbers and overtime. The Garda Commissioner has assured the Minister that the level of resources will enable the force to deploy significant intelligence driven methods and high intensity operations against organised crime, especially drugs and particularly in this area.

Operation Anvil was set up to deal with the difficulties in the west Dublin area. The Garda is concentrating substantial resources in terms of manpower, overtime and intelligence gathering on what it considers to be a highly dangerous group of criminals. With a view to augmenting these efforts, the Garda Commissioner has allocated 50 additional gardaí to the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, which I referred to last week. Their sole duty is to target the groups involved in organised crime. That unit is headed by a detective chief superintendent.

To date Operation Anvil has yielded 1,792 arrests, including 33 for murder, 374 firearms seizures, 3,934 vehicle seizures, 26,231 Garda checkpoints, 8,347 searches for drugs, 873 for thefts and 776 for firearms. These figures show the level of activity but also indicate the level of viciousness involved in these gangs. We have seen their activities over the past six months. If the Deputy wants, I will go back over the figures for 1994 to 1996. However, I believe he knows them and that is not really the point. Obviously the Criminal Justice Bill will help in some of these areas. However, on reading the reports I am convinced that it is not just a question of resources. Like me, Deputy Rabbitte might say that if a person gets shot on a Saturday morning, refuses to say anything and releases himself from hospital only to get shot two weeks later by fly-past gangs and say nothing again, he should perhaps be arrested for his own safety.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is there anywhere to put him?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It should be investigated.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That does not seem to be what happens, however.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I heard the first part of the Taoiseach's reply describing what happened on Sunday morning near where I live. To be honest, it sounded more like the Garda report. I do not know whether the Taoiseach is auditioning for a part on "Crimeline" or taking responsibility, as Head of Government, for what is happening out in gangland. It is fair enough to say that the figures for Operation Anvil show the level of activity, criminality and the real threat that exists.

It is a tragedy in the middle of all of this that the Government is undermining the national drugs strategy which was designed to reduce demand for drugs. The lead community member of the drugs strategy, Mr. Fergus McCabe, felt obliged to resign because of the manner in which it is not being supported by Government and the way the community input is being diminished.

At the same time we have this extraordinary explosion whereby, for example, a 27 year old in the constituency of my colleague, Deputy Burton, was shot because he owed a debt of €500. That is the level it has reached. It is being driven by the drugs craze. There is no sign of the Government being in control. When the Taoiseach talks about Operation Anvil, the fact is that out of 75 killings in the five years I mentioned last week, there have been 12 convictions. These young thugs believe they can do this with impunity. They believe they will not be brought to justice and that on a lottery they have a great chance of escaping conviction. As matters stand, they are right.

It is all very well for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to fulminate into any number of microphones about any number of issues he cares to think about, including the Taoiseach's political prospects. However, what is being said to people who believe that it is the first duty of a Government to provide for their safety when there is open warfare on busy motorways? All we can say about Sunday morning is that it was a miracle that nobody was killed. There were three young women in the back, cars coming in the opposite direction and machine gun fire across the vehicle. It is extraordinary.

There is no confidence in the House and none outside it that the Government is in control of this situation or that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform understands the crime wave we are living through. He seems to have convinced himself that he is doing a good job and that the fault lies elsewhere, when in fact a 27 year old can be shot because he allegedly owes €500. That is how cheap human life has become and there is no evidence I can see that there is any preparation to sit on these gangs until they are brought to justice. They are running through this city with impunity and the Minister, meanwhile, is addressing every other subject except the one for which he is politically accountable to this House.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte asked why I gave the Garda figures. He said the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was responsible to this House for what the Garda did. I was giving him the factual position from information the Garda had given us. I thought that was what he required. I agree with the Deputy that it was a miracle nobody was killed. If it had not been 4.30 a.m., there would have been large volumes of traffic, but even at that time a considerable number of people are on the road. Thankfully nobody else was injured.

In terms of numbers, as I said previously, Deputy Rabbitte continually wants to point out that matters are much worse than they were. We know that is not the position.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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With a population of 3.6 million, there were 29 crimes per thousand of the population.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There was never gun crime like that when we were in government.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Now with a population of half a million more people——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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This is extraordinary. The Taoiseach should stick his head in the sand.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——there are 24.6 crimes per 1,000. They are the figures.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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He has it by the day.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know Deputy Rabbitte would like to point out, as he did last week——

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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This has been going on for too long.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——the cumulative figures for the past few years. I looked back at that because it was a good point.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach did not get the Minister, Deputy McDowell, to look at it.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte said it is terrible that there are 100,000 headline crimes. That was the point made here by the Opposition last week. I found that in 1995 there were 100,785 headline crimes and in 1996——

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That was before the Government changed the method of reporting crimes.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Zero tolerance.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach should be allowed to speak without interruption. Deputy Hayes is not a member of the Labour Party and we are dealing with a Labour Party question.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I listened carefully to a whole lot of misinformation but as soon as I try to give any information Members try to shout me down.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is in denial.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I purposely did not raise the figures because I do not think that is the point. There was more crime when Deputy Rabbitte sat at the Cabinet table, when there was a population of half a million less, and there were fewer gardaí.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy opposed——

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Government changed the definition of headline crime.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte should please allow the Taoiseach to speak.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, the definition was not changed. Far more crimes are now recorded because the PULSE system is recording them, as Deputy Rabbitte knows. I accept there is too much crime. I am glad Fergus McCabe is going to another job — Deputy Rabbitte is aware of that too. I am glad we are still pumping resources into dealing with the drugs problem.

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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The Government is not doing so, the Taoiseach is telling lies.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know Deputy Rabbitte was in a different position then, but I am glad that if he had the chance again he would not oppose the referendum on bail, cancel the prisons programme, be against extra gardaí or vote against our proposals on minimum sentences. They were all wise decisions that he would now make if he were in that position.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We will do all we can, with the Garda, with the powers under the latest criminal justice legislation, to deal with this matter to the best of our ability.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Earlier this month——

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What will be done about the shooters?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Sargent should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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——the EU Environment Commissioner, Stavros Dimas, made the shocking statement in Dublin that climate change, not terrorism, is today's most serious global threat. Will the Taoiseach take this matter seriously? Since 2001 we have had warnings from British and US weather services that ignoring climate change will surely be the most costly of all possible choices for us and our children.

In 2003 the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, issued a report, Climate Change: Scenarios and Impacts for Ireland, which has not been responded to in the detail that is required. Today's newspaper refers to the shocking report of the European Environment Agency, Transport and Environment: Facing a Dilemma 2005. It reads like an arrest warrant for the Government. It states that greenhouse gas emissions in Ireland are up 130% over the past ten years while the EU average is just 22%. It states that 370,000 people die per annum in the EU as a result of air pollution alone and that in the past ten years Irish people have doubled the distance they travel, mainly by car, compared to other EU countries. In many EU countries people have reduced the car miles they are travelling.

Will the Taoiseach admit there has been a failure in terms of public transport investment and planning and the implementation of required building regulations? Will he indicate the action he will take in this regard? The €27 million in renewable energy grants are a welcome drop in the ocean. Who will pay the €1 billion plus bill that will accrue between 2008 and 2012 under the emissions trading scheme? Where is the national climate change strategy review that was promised before the end of last year and why has the Taoiseach continued to subsidise large polluters like CRH when, according to today's newspapers, he is penalising green industries like Ecocem?

The Government has not said — it has been stated frequently in England — who will pay for the flood protection that is required. In last Friday's edition of The Irish Times it was stated that the Taoiseach's constituency, and quite a number of others, will be under water by the end of this century due to the predicted 6 m rise in sea level. That will signal the end of Dublin, Belfast, Waterford and Cork, in addition to a number of other areas. Will the Taoiseach put in place contingency plans for that and will he radically address the change in policy the Government needs to make if we are to have any hope of survival in the years to come, as a country and a planet?

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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If we are not shot, we will drown.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is right.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I think Deputy Sargent will acknowledge and accept that the biggest issue we face is to make sure we get the correct balance in our country between economic growth and prospects——

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The problem is the Government has not gone far enough.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy listen? He should calm down.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ryan's leader has asked a question and the Taoiseach should be allowed to reply.

Johnny Brady (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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Go for a ride on the bicycle.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Deputy may laugh.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The most important thing we can do is try to get the right balance between our economic competitiveness as a modern economy and our environmental responsibilities. That is the crucial issue on which we have been working as we have been growing as a country. We have effectively doubled the entire economy in the past nine years.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Who pays the bills?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have trebled the economy since the late 1980s. We have to continually work and strive to achieve that balance. We have to take account of all the sectors. I do not fundamentally disagree with the points made by Deputy Sargent in that they are crucial issues for the future, but they cannot be dealt with at the expense of crucial industries that generate huge economic activity and create significant employment. We have to try to work——

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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Pay money to Fianna Fáil.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not a question of them supporting Fianna Fáil.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach is not rewarding the people who have done the work already——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Boyle should allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If 2 million people are working and we are trying to build 80,000 houses a year——

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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You can flood them now.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——if we are trying to develop our infrastructure it has to be done in a balanced way.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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What about those businesses if the Gulf Stream switches off?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair will have to take action if Deputy Ryan persists in interrupting.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I want to hear the Taoiseach's reply.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy tell his people to shut up.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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How will the Taoiseach balance the economy to ensure the future of the planet?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does Deputy Ryan want to leave the House? That is what will happen if he does not stop interrupting.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to Deputy Sargent's question on the climate change strategy, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will publish shortly the review of the national climate change strategy which will take stock of all the developments since 2000. He will also propose additional measures for the country to cost effectively meet its target for the purpose of the Kyoto Protocol. Existing and potential new measures to reduce transport emissions will be addressed in the review process. I cannot give the Deputy an exact date for publication of these proposals but I understand the information will be available shortly.

On the emissions trading for the next round, we will announce within a day or two, if not today, the allocations for the sectors concerned for the period 2008 to 2012. Other issues such as VRT, biofuels — the Minister referred to the €27 million to be made available — transport emissions and air quality are vitally important. Nobody is arguing against them and the Minister will set out our position on these.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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They have doubled again.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Sargent also asked about the actions to curb greenhouse gas emissions from transport, proposed changes to planning laws and other legislative measures on building control standards. I hope he will acknowledge that in the latest planning and development legislation, we fundamentally took account of the interests of all the sectors. One cannot just take account of one or two sectors, one has to take a balanced view of these issues. If we did not do so, I would be answering questions from Deputy Sargent about high unemployment and other issues.

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach is obliged to do so.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is estimated that we will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by about 1 million tonnes of CO2 in the next decade and there will be a 41% reduction on projected emissions.

This is without factoring in the additional investment and benefits which we believe will arise from the significant investment, of almost €35 billion in today's prices, being made in Transport 21.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I fear the Taoiseach needs a serious wake-up call on climate change. Energy is the defining issue of our age. I remind the Taoiseach we are talking about the future of mankind rather than about balance. There is no balance in the Taoiseach's approach. JamesLovelock predicts that by the end of this century the earth will be able to support only 1 billion people; therefore 5 billion will die. I ask for some balance when faced with this scenario. I wonder what the history books will record about the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, and the seriousness with which he dealt with this issue. There are children in the Visitors Gallery. The cars used by the Taoiseach and members of the Cabinet do not run on biofuel so I question how serious he is about it. Is the Taoiseach in agreement with other EU leaders who stated cuts in greenhouse gas emissions of between 60% and 80% will be required? The Kyoto Protocol is letting the Taoiseach off the leash to create another 13% of emissions above the 1990 levels. Does he agree that cuts of between 60% to 80% are required and is he serious about it? Has he informed the other leaders he is in agreement with them? Will the Taoiseach face his Cabinet colleagues with the scenario of ecological genocide unless we radically change our whole transport policy and our level of greenhouse gas emissions?

It is a question of different methods of employment. Those who do not produce greenhouse gas emissions should be encouraged. Will the Taoiseach encourage that type of industry and penalise the polluter? Will he reward those who are efficient in terms of their energy use and introduce fiscal measures to do so? This is the kind of balance we mean. I ask for that kind of balance and the reversal of the capital investment programme for transport which has closed down freight, given more roads but not enough public transport and resulted in the bad planning which has people commuting over 50 miles a day.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I remind the Minister, Deputy Cullen, that it is true.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will do my best to answer the Deputy's questions which I take seriously. I am not responsible for the planet, as the Deputy is aware.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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He is responsible for this bit of it.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Neither am I responsible for everything that will have happened by the end of the century. I will not be involved in economic genocide either.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Fianna Fail)
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Star wars.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is crucially important to try to achieve good balance——

Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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What is the Government doing in terms of the environment? Where is the balance?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Deputy Boyle that his leader took approximately six minutes when he was entitled to three. The Deputy must not frustrate a reply from Government.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He was not interrupted. It was raiméis.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has been endeavouring to have policies that can deal sensibly with the issues of climate change, emissions and air quality. If the Deputies opposite honestly believe — perhaps they do — that one can do all these things and ignore economic, business and demographic realities—

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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It is the Taoiseach who is ignoring them.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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With the greatest respect, the policies being put forward by Deputy Sargent are not policies being suggested by any other Green Party in Europe.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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This is rubbish. Every scientist in the world has recommended cuts of between 60% and 80%.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that scientists were not talking about these issues.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Eamon Ryan is not the leader of his party.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They have three leaders today.

None of these issues can be achieved solely by means of the purest version of the world of balance referred to by the Green Party, and nobody is trying to do that. I have explained the Government's policy to the Deputy. Air quality is excellent in this country. The Deputy referred to many reports and I expected him to refer to the Environmental Protection Agency which concluded that as regards pollutants, air quality in this country complies with all the air quality standards in force. These are significant achievements.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Government has faced a fine of more than €1 billion and who is paying?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is a lot of hot air.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Maintaining the standard is a priority so this country can engage constructively with its EU partners. Ireland has decreased its greenhouse gas emissions such as carbon dioxide in the transport sector in particular and significant resources have been put into railways and roads in order to move traffic——

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is being achieved despite a significant increase in population. If the Green Party was to acknowledge some of these issues, I could take it seriously.