Dáil debates
Tuesday, 7 March 2006
Leaders' Questions.
4:00 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sure Members are of one mind in respect of extending an expression of sympathy following the shooting down of Donna Cleary, a young woman and mother of a young child who was out enjoying herself at an ordinary occasion. We now have a Garda investigation into the death of the alleged perpetrator of this heinous crime. At a time like this the country looks to this House and wants legislators to take appropriate action. I am sure the Taoiseach recalls the words which he expressed ten years ago:
As a community we have embarked on a war to row back the level of crime. That war must be waged relentlessly and must be won. It must be directed at lifting the shadow which hangs over our democracy. It demands and deserves the support of all and the first battle will take place today in this House, on it will depend a vigorous and effective anti-crime campaign.
We heard the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who is not present — he is probably speaking on another radio programme — describe this shooting as a watershed. As usual, it is a watershed for everyone but him and there is no indication that this appalling crime will shock him into action. More than a year ago the Minister correctly identified the extent of gun culture and how cheap life has become. He promised mandatory jail sentences and an amnesty to take firearms out of circulation. One year on, nothing has happened and we are bogged down with the Criminal Justice Bill, which is stuck in committee with more than 100 amendments pending. Last year the Minister clapped himself on the back claiming he had wiped out gun culture and gangland killings were the sting of a dying wasp before another series of murders and bloodshed took place last November.
In recent years the House has dealt with emergency legislation on immigration, copyright, ground rent and nursing home charges. Look at the performance of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Under his watch detection rates fell from 42% in 2000 to 35% in 2004. Since he took office, more than 400,000 headline crimes have been committed and if the trend continues until next year, he will have presided over 500,000 headline crimes in one year. Detection and committal of crime are key performance indicators and the Minister has failed utterly on both of them.
I want the Taoiseach to take serious action in respect of the Minister of Justice, Equality and Law Reform's commitments, made on every radio programme in the land when something happens, to introduce legislation. The system is clogged with promises of legislation from the Minister and other members of the Government. There were 73,000 headline crimes in 2000, 98,000 in 2004 and 101,000 in 2005. Detection rates have fallen from 42% in 2000 to 35% in 2004. When will the Taoiseach, as the Head of Government, take this matter seriously? When will he take action with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who is all talk and no action?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I join Deputy Kenny in condemning the cold-blooded killing of Donna Cleary, an act of barbarism in terms of its deliberate and random nature. The perceived reason for the shooting could not be more trivial. The Garda has mounted a major investigation into the crime and arrested five people in connection with it. One of those detained in Coolock Garda station complained of feeling unwell, was visited three times by a doctor and was subsequently taken to Beaumont Hospital for further medical attention. He was then returned to the Garda station where he was provided with prescribed medication. Later, he was again taken to Beaumont Hospital where he was pronounced dead this morning. The Garda Commissioner has appointed a chief superintendent from outside the Dublin metropolitan region to investigate the death. Our sympathies extend to the family, child and relatives of Donna Cleary as well as to everybody else connected with this act of barbarism.
No Minister has introduced and passed more legislation in this House.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It still has not solved the problem.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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More legislation and more guns.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No Minister has conducted more interviews.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I could rehearse the statistics for last year about the most serious categories of crime but that will not do much for Donna Cleary and her family or for anybody else who is killed. A Criminal Justice Bill is before the House which can perhaps assist in this but a great deal of legislation has already been passed, including legislation on sentencing for drug and gun crime. The Criminal Justice Bill contains provisions to strengthen the investigative powers of the Garda Síochána in terms of powers of arrest, search and detention, taking fingerprints and DNA samples, strengthening the criminal law, mandatory sentencing and other issues, and builds on the tough measures included in the Criminal Justice Act 1999 which provided for ten-year mandatory jail sentences for anyone convicted of possessing drugs with a street value of more than €12,500.
We have enacted legislation dealing with crimes of a sexual nature, such as the Sex Offenders Act, the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act and the Sexual Offences (Jurisdiction) Act, and a range of public order legislation. We have introduced Operation Anvil for which significant resources and numbers of gardaí have been provided. Resources have been given to gardaí at all levels.
I concur with Deputy Kenny that the legislation in the system will help to build on the existing tough legislation. Firearms legislation is an important issue and may be of assistance because increasing numbers of people have access to firearms and, as in this deliberate and random case, people resort to guns over relatively trivial arguments. We are seeing more of that and, in terms of gun crime, we should certainly try to strengthen our laws. I have no argument with Deputy Kenny on speeding up the passage of that legislation.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Why does the Taoiseach not do so?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is in the system and it is to be hoped that——
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It was in the system for the past two years.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would be very glad if speeding through this legislation solved everything. It builds on tough legislation passed only seven years ago.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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When the Taoiseach was in Opposition, he was all zero tolerance.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There has been no improvement.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy wants me to give a litany of the improvements, I can do so.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would gladly quote all the statistics from all the categories. The figures are there——
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The figures are up.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are the official Garda figures from which Fine Gael's leader quoted but the Deputy obviously does not want to listen. I would prefer to build on the tough legislation already in place.
Dan Neville (Limerick West, Fine Gael)
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What tough legislation?
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach said this morning on the radio that it was not enough.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption. It is the Deputy's leader's question and he is entitled to hear a response.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Tough legislation exists, including mandatory sentences for possession of drugs and legislation on firearms. Much of that legislation was criticised in this House and we are discussing how to build on that.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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We know where the tough men are: walking the streets of Dublin.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is no watershed in what the Taoiseach has said. This is a repetition of the statistics he has recited before. What criteria and measures of performance will follow the watershed to which he referred? Is it not a fact that there is anarchy on the streets and in the suburbs of Dublin city? Despite the Taoiseach's soft tones, the current situation is worse than it was five years ago and infinitely worse than ten years ago when the Taoiseach made the remarks I quoted back to him.
In Coolock, Santry and Raheny, the number of homicides increased eightfold in the space of five years, from four in 2000 to 32 in 2005. The number of serious assaults has doubled, from 135 in 2000 to 294 in 2005. That is the measure of performance of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government.
Yesterday morning, the Taoiseach said that many people who commit murders are released after seven years. Most people in this country would agree with him on that but, as he often reminds us, he cannot have it both ways. The sentence for murder in this country is automatically a life sentence and life means life. The reason Malcolm McArthur is still in jail is because the Minister refused to let him out.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When the Taoiseach says that people are walking the streets seven years after committing murder, he should not blame that on society or on this House but should look across the Cabinet table and ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform why sentences are not being adhered to when murder means murder and an automatic life sentence.
We have had emergency legislation on immigration, ground rents and a range of other matter in the past 12 months. Is the Taoiseach now prepared to put the elements of the Criminal Justice Bill which deal with firearms before the House, where this party can facilitate him with more emergency legislation, so that we can see the consequence of the watershed he speaks of? Are we to have more waffle and promises but no action?
In respect of the Minister, I remind the Taoiseach that on the 20th anniversary of the foundation of the Progressive Democrats, of which the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, was a member, the party's founding member, Mr. Desmond O'Malley, said that it was necessary to deal with the dead hand of Government. That dead hand of Government is epitomised by the inactivity of the absent Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and of the Taoiseach——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has long since concluded.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——who presides over a Government which has allowed law and order to become defunct. People are afraid to walk the streets and anarchy exists in Dublin city.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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One would get longer than seven years for stealing a bag of potatoes.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair wishes to make a point. Deputy Kenny had two minutes in which to submit a question. He used seven and a half. The Chair will not allow a situation to develop in this House in which a question is submitted and the member of Government is frustrated from replying.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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He was not waffling.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest Members keep quiet and allow Deputy Kenny to hear the answer.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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An innocent woman is dead and the Ceann Comhairle is talking about five minutes.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy submitted a question and is entitled to hear the answer along with the rest of the House.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has no answer.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair will not allow a situation where Members frustrate the member of Government trying to reply.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A child has no parent today. The woman's child is an orphan.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Where is the Minister for zero tolerance?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Where is Deputy O'Donoghue now?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy Kenny and his party allow, I will answer the question. I will not need long. I will not go back into all the facts and figures about legislation. Deputy Kenny asked if we are proceeding with criminal justice legislation, and firearms legislation in particular. The entire Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill 2005 should be finished as gun crime is not the only problem. There is a series of other issues.
Gun crime provisions in firearms legislation is particularly important, as it creates mandatory minimum sentences of between five and ten years for certain firearm offences, including possession of a firearm in suspicious circumstances, possession of a firearm with criminal intent, possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property, possession of a firearm while hijacking a vehicle in use, or production of a firearm to resist arrest. It requires all persons wishing to legally hold a firearm to satisfy the Garda that secure accommodation is provided for the firearm. It allows the Minister to deem certain firearms as restricted by reference to specific criteria, including the calibre, action type and muzzle energy of the firearm. In future, any person wishing to obtain a certificate for such a firearm will have to apply directly to the Garda Commissioner.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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These do not have certificates.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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This was promised a year ago.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There will be new offences introduced concerning the modification of firearms, as with a sawn off shotgun, and increasing fines and penalties. The Minister also intends to introduce a statutory basis for an amnesty during which firearms may be surrendered to the Garda before new penalties and minimum mandatory sentences are introduced.
Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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The Garda has no arms of its own.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think an amnesty is rubbish.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Where are the provisions for this?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It will enable those in possession of firearms who are not in compliance with the legal requirements to regularise their position. This will enable the Garda to concentrate on the most serious offences.
I briefly answered a question yesterday and I will refer to that point. Until recent years, some people sentenced to murder, which carries a mandatory sentence by our courts under strict legislation governed by this House which does not need to be improved, were only being imprisoned for seven years. This was at a time when there were not enough prison places, and society believed in being more lenient. The sentence is now 13 years. All murderers who committed their actions recently are serving at least 13 years. The parole board makes a recommendation and the Minister either accepts this or rejects it. He accepts most of them. The tariff has gone up, in the last decade, from seven to 13 years.
Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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Is the Taoiseach happy with 13 years?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This was the point I made yesterday. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as old age or infirmity, a life sentence should mean life. This should apply to a person going out with a knife or a gun in their pocket on any night, or who returns home for a gun, or who has a gun in a car, and who blasts an innocent person. Is society not at this stage, even though we have moved from seven-year minimum sentences to 13-year minimum sentences? I believe the parole board view is to go to 15 years. Unless the circumstances are seen differently by the parole board, why should the sentence not be far tougher?
If we have mindless people who do not care a damn what they do with anybody's life, we must be tough.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should do something about it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is not a consensus in this. My view, which I stated yesterday, is that while we are moving to a mandatory sentence of 13 years from seven years, although I recognise the parole board's recommendation is 15 years——
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——it should be far tougher. A life sentence should mean life.
Michael AhernPaul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Where is the Minister for zero tolerance?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should take action.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is it not the case that there has been complacency at the heart of this Government, and so long as gangsters were killing each other it did not matter? I warned several times on these benches that the day would come when such gangsters would turn their weapons on innocent citizens. That is what has occurred. Thugs refused admission to a private party came back and casually discharged a weapon, leading to the murder of a young mother.
The safety of our citizens is the first task of Government. What is the response of this Government, but a co-ordinated diversion organised between the Taoiseach and his Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Apparently the Judiciary is to blame.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It was somebody else the last time.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is a travesty of the truth and the Taoiseach knows it. There is a mandatory life sentence for murder currently. When the Taoiseach states, in replying to Deputy Kenny, that a life sentence is for life and should be so, who changes this? The Taoiseach does, not members of the Judiciary. It is an administrative and political decision for early release. It is not a decision of the Bench.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach knows this is a complete misrepresentation.
The Taoiseach is coming along as a sort of casual observer. It is as if he was coming along O'Connell Street, hearing that there were barrels down the back containing petrol bombs. The word was going around the Taoiseach's constituency that hooligans were going to mount an assault the next day. This was if he was an ordinary man on the street. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will lecture everybody except those under his responsibility. He is a master at building a bogus argument and knocking it down.
This is not the fault of the Judiciary. The issue does not centre on law, punishment or the Judiciary, but on policing and enabling the Garda to do its job. It should be resourced to do this job properly. The Taoiseach should consider the figures.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There were some 75 murders with guns between 1998 and 2004. Proceedings were initiated in just 26 cases, or 35% of these. Convictions were recorded in 12 cases, or 16%. That is the performance. The Taoiseach should not give figures for arrests over drug abuse or other crimes. The figures I have mentioned are prosecutions and convictions. Some 12 of 75 murders with weapons between 1998 and 2004 ended in a conviction. This is a policing and a resourcing issue. It is not a courts issue.
It is disreputable of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to spin a line for the media that the Judiciary is somehow at fault for what happened in Coolock. The Judiciary is not to blame. It implements the law as this House enacts it. If the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform does not reform the law or bring in the amendments which have been promised for two or three years, it is not the fault of the Judiciary.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Newspaper headlines from 2003 state that "McDowell will double prison term for killers". Another from 2003 states that "McDowell says gardaí have not enough powers," while others state "McDowell says victory despite gang murders" and "McDowell says last sting of the dying wasp". This is the record. What occurred in Coolock, where an innocent civilian lost her life, is the responsibility of Government, not of the Judiciary.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte usually listens very carefully to me. I did not make any reference, either yesterday or today, to the Judiciary.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is distancing himself.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach did.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not make any such reference. I will not let blatant mistruths go.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is using spin.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will give Deputy Rabbitte the chance to withdraw the statement. I did not once mention the Judiciary. Whoever else did so, I did not. Deputy Rabbitte stated three times that I did. I stated that a judge has no discretion in imposing a life sentence for murder, and that legislation is absolutely tight. He can make comments that must be taken into account. The parole board makes recommendations and the Minister accepts the great majority of them. I remind Deputy Rabbitte, though I would rather not do so on a day when I wanted to express my sympathy for Donna Cleary, that when he had an opportunity at the Cabinet table, albeit brief, he cancelled the prison building programme, failed to put even one extra garda on the street and failed to properly resource the Garda Síochána. He supported the policy to allow 16% of prisoners onto the streets——
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach allowed them to flourish.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is passing the buck.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——he opposed the bail legislation and voted against a ten-year minimum sentence for substantial drug dealers.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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All those who stand up as usual to oppose a criminal justice Bill now want the Government to introduce one because poor Donna Cleary was killed. Deputy Rabbitte no more wants to see tough laws than the man on the moon, and we should be honest about that.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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That is some waffle, Taoiseach.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Quinn to allow the leader of his party to submit his question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I cannot believe that within 24 hours the Taoiseach has denied the spin he put on events yesterday.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Did I mention the Judiciary?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Let me quote from RTE today.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Did I mention the Judiciary?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That was exactly the import of what he said.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte without interruption.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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He said to Deputy Kenny that a life sentence should mean life. What is that supposed to mean? The Taoiseach is the one who decides.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I referred to the parole board.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is the Taoiseach who paroles criminals, not the Judiciary.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is the parole board and the Minister. Life meant seven years when Deputy Rabbitte was at the Cabinet table, now it means 14 years.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The headline from RTE today stated: "Judges are considering comments, made following the shooting, by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the sentences imposed for serious criminal offences." That is what RTE stated.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Rabbitte believe that?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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RTE stated it in response to the Taoiseach's and Deputy McDowell's comments.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I made no comment about the Judiciary.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte without interruption.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The spin is that judges are somehow responsible for imposing inadequate sentences.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It is the Taoiseach's spin.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach deny saying——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte without interruption.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——to his own Ard-Fheis that one of the most basic of all civil rights was the freedom to be safe on one's own streets and in one's own home? He went on: "I will make the fight against crime my priority in the new Fianna Fáil Government. Let me put the Fianna Fáil message in five simple words to the drug barons and criminal gangs: "We will not accept this".
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach continued:
You will no longer be allowed hold sway over our lives. You will not live in luxury with impunity because we have a plan for you. Our plan is to arrest you, prosecute you and put you in jail.
Liam TwomeyPat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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He did it for 16% of those who committed murder using firearms in the six years, 1998-2004. That is the record inherited from the Minister for zero tolerance, who said we could judge him at the end of his term of office by whether our citizens feel safer in their homes and in the streets. They feel safer in neither and that is his legacy. Deputy O'Donoghue cynically trotted out his policy of zero tolerance for months on end, while the Minister of the day was responsible for the slightest malfeasance. Now people live under the ferule of constant aggravation in the form of anti-social behaviour and serious crime by gangland killers whose actions in Coolock over the weekend demonstrate how casually they regard human life.
The Taoiseach's response has been completely inadequate. The Government is not getting the convictions, making the prosecutions effectively nor making the changes in law promised since it came into office. It has not resourced the Garda Síochána to do its job and the Taoiseach has, along with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, evaded his responsibility by means of calculated, co-ordinated diversions such as we saw yesterday as to who is responsible for what happened.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will briefly make the points again. Murder sentences amounted to seven years when the Deputy was in Government. Now it is 13 and the parole board is raising it to 15. I think it should be higher.
Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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Ten-year sentences for drugs are not handed down.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The gardaí are not catching them.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is a Labour Party question. Deputy McGinley is not a member of that party.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Garda numbers are at an all-time high, as are Garda resources.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Crime is at an all-time high.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy wants to interrupt he can say why his party opposed the ten-year minimum sentence for substantial drug dealers.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach to reply without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe Members opposite will also say they will support the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he brings in legislation to deal with such crime. Going by their record they will not. There has been an increase in murders and we must take a tougher position, and in that regard there has been a twofold increase under the current Minister. He has brought about a massive decrease in crime across a wide area.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The current Minister is a failure.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Opposition members were told to come to the House today to rant. They do not want to listen.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will finish where I started. The cold-blooded killing of Donna Cleary was an act of barbarism and all right-thinking people will agree we must get much tougher on those who under legislation passed by this House are given a mandatory sentence and are dealt with by the Judiciary as they must. Some, though not all, were released after seven years but that is now 13 years. The parole board view is that it should be 15. The perception on the streets, however, is that it is still seven.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It used to be seven. As I said yesterday, it is nothing to do with the legislation or the Judiciary, but with the fact people thought it acceptable if people had served a certain number of years, other than in exceptional circumstances, of which there have been three or four cases. We should be tougher, so that a life sentence means life.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is in charge.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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He is in a position to bring that about.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope Deputy Stagg will not vote against tougher laws on crime again.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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He has a majority — he does not need me.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As long as I have been in this House, Deputy Rabbitte's party has always been soft on criminal justice legislation and he knows that.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Has the Progressive Democrats gone into hiding?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is a national Parliament, Deputy Durkan, not a crèche.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I join with the Taoiseach and Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte in expressing sympathy to the child and family of the late Donna Cleary. I absolutely deplore her brutal murder, which underlines the need to consider other, more effective ways of addressing the supply of guns and weapons in our society. The focus should be on the drugs trade in particular, which sustains the armed criminal gangs not only in this city but throughout society.
I want to raise another issue with the Taoiseach. Is he familiar with the statistics released on Monday on the provision of social and affordable housing under Part V of the Planning and Development Act? Is the Taoiseach aware that these statistics clearly demonstrate the failure of Government policy to properly provide for the needs of not only those on our housing waiting lists but clearly statistically cannot hope for many years to come to make a serious dent in the some 43,600 family units currently on housing waiting lists throughout the State? Is the Taoiseach aware that with the adoption of Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000, he and his party were clearly subjected to a clamour from those within the building industry and developer interests?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As a result, the Taoiseach and his colleagues facilitated, letting off the hook, those whose responsibility it was to provide 20% social and affordable housing within all private developments. The Government rammed through and guillotined in Christmas week 2002 a revisitation of that requirement, which allowed those developers to buy out of their responsibilities to address the social and affordable housing of needs of people in this jurisdiction through the use of money and the transfer of land banks to local authorities.
Is the Taoiseach aware that of the 80,000 new homes built in 2005, a mere 830 were allocated to social and affordable housing under Part V of the Planning and Development Act? That is marginally more than 1% of the housing provided last year and a far cry from the 20% requirement under the aegis of the legislation. The amending legislation the Taoiseach and his colleagues rammed through the Chamber, despite the concerns expressed by Opposition voices of what would happen and what has now proven to be the case, has let off the hook those who had a clear and binding responsibility. The Taoiseach, his party and the PDs stand condemned by these statistics, which demonstrate clearly that the Government's cosy relationship with the developers in our society was more important to it than meeting the housing needs of the most poor, needy and marginalised in our society. We want to hear the Taoiseach's response to the facts before the House.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin is aware that when we introduced the Planning and Development Act 2000, it was the first time in three decades that the issue of trying to improve affordable housing on zoned land had been dealt with since the Kenny report in 1970.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Part V was introduced in 2000 and continues to gather momentum. Provisional figures available show that numbers are increasing this year. Not all housing developments are subject to Part V. An important point tends to be ignored — the Deputy, looking at recent figures, has done so as well. It is not correct to take 81,000 units last year, divide by two and multiply by 20. It gives a totally false picture of potential Part V output. As we move through houses that did not require to be subject to Part V affordable schemes we see an increase in the number of affordable houses.
The Government is disappointed that local authorities seem to make deals with developers at local authority level. If I had more support at local authority level, I would try to reverse that.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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That is not the Taoiseach's decision.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's party has quite a lot of support in this city. Perhaps he will encourage it to try to press the issue along.
Record levels of funding are being provided for social and affordable housing programmes. Additional funding has been secured in the budget. The provision for this year is in excess of €2 billion, which is more than double the expenditure when the Planning and Development Act 2000 was introduced. The needs of some 14,000 households have been met from funding for social and affordable housing this year——
Seymour CrawfordBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——and further households will benefit from the rental accommodation scheme. In the region of 13,000 households were assisted through the full range of social and affordable housing measures in 2005 and 23,000 new units of social housing will commence between 2006 and 2008. A total of 15,000 units of affordable housing will be delivered in the same period. This Government was anxious to increase the level of housing, which used to be about 25,000 in output per year. Thankfully, last year we got output up to 81,000.
Deputy Ó Caoláin is right in one respect. When we brought in Part V, there was a barrage in the House. He will recall — although he has forgotten temporarily — that the barrage did not come from this side of the House. It came from the Opposition parties because they said — it was the then Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Noel Dempsey's proposal that Part V be in that Act — we would stop building altogether instead of increasing supply. The matter was pressed here in leader's questions and Taoiseach's questions, not to mind questions to the Department of the Environment and Local Government, to make changes in that.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Government backbenchers also pressed it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Whatever changes we made did not stop the Minister for Finance this year putting more than €2 billion — double the expenditure — into affordable housing. I hope the Deputy in his next two minutes will outline what efforts his party with its new support in local authorities might make to press them to try to help the Minister's policies.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am happy to say that my colleagues on Dublin City Council have a very honourable record on the issue of housing and development, something I doubt that the Taoiseach could place his hand on his heart and claim. The Taoiseach has an interest in accountancy. When he talked of dividing by two and multiplying by 20 I wonder what in the name of God this would bring one to. What was it all about?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will tell the Deputy in a minute.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Just to give the Taoiseach some real statistics, the reality since 2002 is that more than 230,000 homes have been completed and put on sale. Approximately a third of these were bought as second homes or to be owned by investors. At best, it is estimated that only 1,600 houses have been provided under Part V since 2002. The Taoiseach should check the statistics with his colleague in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. He will find these are indisputable facts. It has to be pathetic. Part V was introduced in 1999 by the Taoiseach's colleague on the Front Bench, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey.
Noel DempseyCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I supported it. It is a measure that needs to be implemented. Will the Taoiseach revisit the amendment he rushed through the House in Christmas week 2002 and restore the original intent and purpose of the 1999 Act? This "get out" clause is making an absolute ass of the entire intent, if it was real from day one. I remind the Taoiseach of what the then Minister said on that day. He stated: "The plan will lead to an additional 35,000 local authority units, an increase in the voluntary housing sector provision of houses from 500 a year to 4,000 a year and an increase to 2,000 units per year under the current local authority affordable housing and shared ownership schemes". If only any of that were true.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It reads like a sick joke for any of the 43,000 people in question and their families, more than 130,000 citizens who are waiting to be properly housed in the State. It is an indictment of the Taoiseach and his Government's failure to recognise their primary responsibility to the ordinary citizens and not the interests of the developer class. Will the Taoiseach reverse the amendment of December 2002 and return to the intent announced by the then Minister in 1999?
5:00 pm
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy knows, local authorities are allowed to use discretion and flexibility in this area. The Minister, Deputy Roche, would like them to do so and has urged them to do so. Such flexibility exists.
The Deputy suggests nothing is happening in this area but I remind him that more than €2 billion will be invested in social and affordable housing. The needs of some 14,000 householders will be met. The Deputy asked what I meant by referring to last year's output of 81,000 being built under the scheme and referred to dividing by two and multiplying by 20. I did so because the figure he quoted at the beginning was from a report that did exactly that. It divided the figure of 81,000 units by two and multiplied by 20 and stated that this was what should be provided under Part V.
Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach want an abacus?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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For example, from last year's total output of 81,000 units, more than 8,000 were built under social and affordable schemes and, along with 25,000 one-off houses, these would not have been subject to Part V and must be subtracted from the calculations. We estimate that more than 10,000 units of total housing output were subject to Part V last year. Deputy Ó Caoláin is basing his calculations on 81,000 units——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is working from 800,000 units.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——but the figure should be the 10,000 houses that were subject to Part V. The figures from the report to which the Deputy is refers do not stack up.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to reply without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin questioned the figures so I wish to provide the final figures. Some €2 billion will be spent this year, the needs of 14,000 households will be met from funding for social and affordable measures this year and further households will benefit from the accommodation scheme, which compares with 8,500 before the Act was passed. At the end of 2005 almost 100,000 had benefited from these measures over recent years and 13,000 householders were assisted through the full range of social housing measures.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach reverse the decision of December 2002?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of output, social and affordable housing, the voluntary sector and the resources provided, the analysis provided by Deputy Ó Caoláin is incorrect. We can try to achieve the flexibility in the Planning and Development Act 2000 and the Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2002. We can also try to get local authorities to use the principle of Part V instead of making arrangements with developers. This responsibility lies with local authorities.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Somebody else is to blame.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Legislation is required.