Dáil debates
Wednesday, 15 February 2006
Leaders' Questions.
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On 12 April 2005, the Taoiseach made one of his greatest understatements when he said that "accident and emergency facilities are not up to scratch". He was right. On that day, the Irish Nurses Organisation estimated there were 350 patients on trolleys or chairs in our hospitals. Apart from stating the blindingly obvious, the Taoiseach also expressed confidence at that time that the Tánaiste's much-vaunted €70 million programme would deliver improvements. The Tánaiste told us in 2004 that we would see improvements by March 2005. In January 2005, she told us there would be significant improvements by the end of that year. She now seems to have abandoned any work on accident and emergency units, deciding instead to focus her energies elsewhere.
The facts indicate that this problem is getting worse. There were 392 people on trolleys and chairs in accident and emergency departments yesterday. There were 218 people in similar circumstances on the same day in 2005, which was considered at the time to be a crisis. It is incredible that there were 75 people on trolleys and chairs at Tallaght Hospital yesterday. Today's The Irish Times reports that patients are calling a corridor in the hospital "the Mary Harney suite". Yesterday, there were 22 people on trolleys and chairs at the Mater Hospital, 25 at Beaumont Hospital, 28 at St. James's Hospital, 26 at Cavan General Hospital, 25 at Letterkenny General Hospital and 37 at two hospitals in Cork. Does the Taoiseach have any idea of the discomfort and indignity being suffered by such people on a daily basis, as a consequence of the Government's incompetence? Every time we raise this matter, we are given the same old answers —"we are doing something about it", "we are working on it", "things will get better soon", "it is the patients' fault", "it is the nurses' fault" or "it is the doctors' fault". Nobody on the Government side takes any blame or responsibility for it.
Does the Taoiseach accept that while the number of people attending accident and emergency departments has hardly changed since 1998, the number of people on trolleys and chairs is increasing? Even though we have trebled our expenditure on the health service, the problems in accident and emergency units are going from bad to worse. Will the Taoiseach admit that the Tánaiste's disjointed and incremental plan has failed, that no system of comprehensive response to this crisis has been put in place and that the key stakeholders have not been consulted? Can the Taoiseach offer any explanation of why this problem is continuing to get worse, nine years after his Government took office? Can he indicate to the House the solid action the Government proposes to take to deal with this atrocious situation in a positive manner?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Kenny cannot deny that huge improvements have taken place since 12 April 2005. New facilities have been opened, for example.
Bernard DurkanBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A new accident and emergency department has been opened at St. Vincent's University Hospital.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about Beaumont Hospital?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
New wards have been opened at James Connolly Memorial Hospital and Mater Misericordiae University Hospital.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Government has been making promises for ten years.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The development of an extension to the accident and emergency unit at St. James's Hospital has almost been completed. It is scheduled to open in the next few months. A new admissions facility at Mater Misericordiae University Hospital's accident and emergency department opened in December and is now up and running. All of these new facilities have opened. It is not true to say the Tánaiste's ten-point plan has delivered nothing, a year on, because the facilities I have mentioned have opened and are in daily operation. It is true, however, to say there are people on waiting lists and on trolleys in a number of hospitals because the figures are published every day and every week.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach cannot deny that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A wide-ranging approach has been adopted by the Health Service Executive to try to improve access to accident and emergency services.
Liz McManusBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senior management officials from the HSE have been working on the accident and emergency difficulties since they took office last year.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach has been in office for nine years.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The officials have improved patient flow through accident and emergency departments and reduced waiting times.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
An election will solve it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They have freed up acute beds by providing appropriate long-term care for patients outside the acute hospitals system. Their action plan has focused in particular on patients in acute hospitals who have completed the acute phase of their treatment and are ready to be discharged. Some 1,500 patients have been facilitated to leave acute hospitals since the date mentioned by Deputy Kenny.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach has not admitted that there is a problem.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We announced a range of measures, including the provision of high-dependency beds, intermediate care beds in private nursing homes, additional beds in public nursing homes and home care packages, in the last budget.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Those measures have not been implemented. There are cutbacks everywhere.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The measures have allowed approximately 1,500 people to leave acute hospitals. We accept that some difficulties remain.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We hear about them every day.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach should resign.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not acceptable to refuse to acknowledge that significant resources are being invested in the health system by the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive, under the guidance of the Tánaiste. It is well-known in the hospitals system that officials in the HSE and the Department are working every day to improve the system. A number of priority projects, most of which are ongoing, have not yet been completed under the ten-point plan. If I had time I would outline to the House the current status of each of those projects.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are going nowhere.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are continuing.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A previous Taoiseach described the current Taoiseach as the most cunning and devious of them all. It has been reported that a Government backbencher said yesterday that it is sometimes impossible to figure out what goes on in the Taoiseach's head. The Taoiseach's response is very far removed from the reality. When I visited the accident and emergency unit of the Mater Misericordiae University Hospital last week, the head nurse there gave me a graphic description of a serious assault on a ward sister.
Will the Taoiseach appoint a respected member of the health profession to call together the key stakeholders? These are the consultants, who should be discussing this instead of debating it on radio, the nurses, the general practitioners and those involved in successful experiments such as that in Kilkenny. They should be called together to produce short-term responses that can be delivered. Is the Taoiseach prepared to charge drunks extra for sleeping off their intoxication in wards with their hangers on? These people cause serious disruption to patients, doctors, nurses and the general public. Is he prepared to set up a number of helplines now? People should be able to know where they can get help when they need it. How many GPs are available any night on any weekend from Howth to Loughlinstown? Where do people get help when they want it? Why has the Government not been able to implement nursing home regulations that will allow for people to be discharged from hospitals to well regulated, well run nursing homes? Guidelines for this are being drawn up for a long time, yet nothing has happened.
This House is becoming irrelevant to people on trolleys today and tomorrow. They are not just on trolleys; people are also on chairs. I saw it myself last week in the accident and emergency unit in the Mater hospital. The place was cluttered and jammed and there was no room for any kind of movement at the weekend. The Taoiseach should visit some of those hospitals and see what is going on.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's time has concluded.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the Taoiseach admit, despite all the verbosity, that he has failed to engage with the key stakeholders? Does he admit he has failed to put in place short-term proposals that will deal with the accident and emergency situation? How many minor injury units in public hospitals have been set up, as promised in the Tánaiste's programme? They have been set up in private hospitals, but not in public hospitals. The situation is getting worse every week and the Government has failed to deal with it. The Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children is one year in office and she suddenly decided she will deal with the elderly. We have had three years of her waffle about dealing with this crisis, which is heaping indignity upon indignity on patient after patient all over this country. The facts are there and whatever the Taoiseach reads out from his well prepared brief, it is not relevant to the nurse who was seriously assaulted in the Mater hospital last week——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy should give way to the Taoiseach.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——or to the hundreds of patients lying on trolleys and chairs today.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We need more beds.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am well aware of the difficulties for staff in accident and emergency units. Like Deputy Kenny, I was in the accident and emergency department in the Mater Hospital last Monday. I am sure he forgot to mention that a new 33 bed ward was just opened adjacent to the department to help people.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is 33 new beds. I hope we do not get to a situation when we open facilities in St. Vincent's Hospital, in Blanchardstown, in St. James's Hospital, and 33 beds in the Mater Hospital, that every bit——
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about all the facilities they are closing?
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about all the wards they are closing?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
These are leaders' questions only.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When we fully staff the hospitals, take on 24 additional accident and emergency consultants, take 1,500 people out of acute beds and when we have an elderly day care package, I hope that is not considered to be nothing. The money is being spent on those facilities.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is being spent on official travel expenses.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
To try to claim that nothing is happening on these issues is incorrect. There are pressures and there is no doubt about that.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are disasters.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We know that and we see it every day. We have introduced an initiative to create 1,000 new public beds by having the private sector build private hospitals on sites of public hospitals and that is helping. We put in funding for 900 inpatient beds in acute hospitals and that is having an effect. We put in facilities to improve patient flow and we obtained extra staff in almost every accident and emergency unit. Deputy Kenny is right that the initiative in Kilkenny is good. It is for that reason that the person who devised the Kilkenny unit has been taken out of there and has been put on the national service. That is part of what Deputy Kenny has accused me of not doing, namely, to co-ordinate the activity around the country to try to bring the same success in Kilkenny elsewhere. They are dedicated people in the HSE co-ordinating their efforts with accident and emergency departments every day.
The ten point plan is being implemented. I readily admit there are still difficulties as I hear that every day. However, there has been an enormous amount of activity in the last year and in the last number of years.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are still not up to scratch.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to return to the Stardust issue that was raised yesterday. I presume the Taoiseach, like most Members, watched the programme last night. The Taoiseach made a commitment yesterday that if new evidence came forward, he and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform were prepared to review it. There is no necessity for me to describe the horror of what was depicted in an example of the best of public service broadcasting. Whatever the apprehensions about the programmes before they were screened, nobody can say that as a documentary drama it was not an excellent contribution to public service broadcasting. We have a duty in this House to protect the safety of citizens and where their rights are abrogated, we have a duty to see some fair procedure to vindicate those rights.
On reflection, what is the Taoiseach's position today? Just because the programmes are finished, we should not pass over this issue again as we have done so many times in the past. Yesterday, I suggested that perhaps the speediest, most effective way to deal with the legitimate questions raised by the families would be to borrow the practice followed in the Dean Lyons case. A senior counsel might be appointed by the Minister to review the Garda files and the papers available to the tribunal, to assess any new evidence, to assess the significance of last night's programme and to make recommendations to the Minister. Has the Taoiseach had an opportunity to reflect on that? This is a cheap, speedy, effective and sufficient way to establish whether there is a basis to believe that another investigation would be more effective.
There were two new experts introduced last night. We did not know there was a difference of expert opinion at the tribunal. I do not know what weight colleagues in the House give to the programme, but there was sufficient concern raised by two independent experts with no axe to grind to suggest the relatives have a fair claim to have some procedure open to them whereby they can seek answers to questions that have remained unanswered to date. The Taoiseach should agree to the suggestion I made yesterday. The senior counsel should have access to the kind of technical fire advice that we saw on the programme last night and he could then bring conclusions to the Minister.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The programmes are useful and are good examples of public service broadcasting. There is no doubt about that. I also think the recent work of the Stardust relatives committee has been good. The first part of that work was examined by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána and the Forensic Science Laboratory. They concluded, following expert analysis, that nothing new had emerged that was not dealt with in the long public inquiry by the Keane tribunal in 1981-82.
Further evidence was provided by the relatives more recently and the Minister gave a full commitment that this would also be dealt with. That is still outstanding and must be dealt with. I understand RTE will helpfully provide the programme details and data to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which must also be fully examined. I said I would meet the relatives and I note that they intend to contact me at the end of the week. Whatever issues arise from that meeting, including issues relating to technology and DNA, I will be happy to examine them.
It is not a question of forgetting about these matters. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his predecessor had a series of meetings over a number of years. Developments have not stopped. They may have stopped in the public domain but not with regard to the relatives of the Stardust committee. They have been through a long series of meetings. There are three separate issues involved, as I and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform understand it, and they will be examined and a conclusion drawn as to what action is necessary.
To be frank with Deputy Rabbitte, I cannot make a conclusion as to whether issues of design, location of the fire or where it may have started constitute new evidence. I will not agree or disagree with that as I just do not know. However, it is valuable information to be examined by those who can make an assessment in that regard. I can make sure that happens and we will then see where we go from there.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with the Taoiseach that he cannot make a conclusion about the design of the building or the cause of the fire, whether it was arson or accident. None of us in the House can do that. However, on a different issue, is the Taoiseach prepared to put in process some review that can quickly report to the relevant Minister whether there is a basis for further investigation. I am not clear from the Taoiseach's answer what is his response to that. He stated this matter was reviewed over many years by the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The previous Minister was in office for five years. Deputy Broughan raised this matter on the 20th anniversary. Five years later, after the Minister had left office, absolutely nothing was done.
The Taoiseach has not met the relatives and the Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, present or past, did not do so. What is the Taoiseach saying to the relatives following the screening of the three programmes on this issue, given the sense of miscarriage of justice which is deeply felt by many of the relatives?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's time is concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Why is the Taoiseach not in a position to state he will put in train, for example, the kind of investigation that I suggested or that Deputy Kenny suggested yesterday in terms of the Judge Cory-type precedent? Surely we can do that to meet the genuine concerns of the relatives.
The Taoiseach did not state yesterday — I read the transcript again because I sometimes have as much difficulty as his backbenchers in interpreting what he says — why the Government decided against a national fire authority, which was the key recommendation of the Keane tribunal. He brought in consultants and they recommended a national fire authority as the key recommendation, yet the Taoiseach never explained why he decided against it. In today's newspapers fire officers in Dublin state there is the same number of fire safety inspectors as in 1981 and express fears that must be in the mind of every citizen about whether this could happen again. There is no answer to that either. Why did the Taoiseach decide not to set up a national fire authority? Will he appoint somebody, along the lines of the precedent in the Dean Lyons case, to establish whether there is any hope that a new investigation would reach different conclusions in regard to this appalling tragedy?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The recommendations on the fire safety issues were made in 1982. I will not answer for all the policy initiatives from 1982, but more recently an implementation group considered these initiatives and I understand the group has considered the issue of the authority. I cannot say why that did not happen for 20 years. It was decided at the time not to go down that road but more recently the implementation group examined the original recommendation.
I will not repeat the figures I outlined yesterday except to state that there are 34 fire prevention staff working in Dublin compared to four at that time.
I heard the relatives speak on last night's television programme and they were very clear on what I said in the House, for which I was glad, but for the benefit of Deputy Rabbitte I will be clear on this matter again. There are three issues. First, the relatives gave further information to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and asked him to have it examined. That process is under way. The Minister has given clear commitments to the relatives that as soon as he receives the report from the Garda Síochána and the Forensic Science Laboratory, he will communicate with them. The second issue concerns the television programmes and issues that have arisen in the past few weeks, most of which were reflected in the programmes and others in what the relatives have said. Those matters will be examined in a way similar to the Minister's consideration of the committee's recommendations. RTE will helpfully provide background details. Third, some unanswered questions remain, particularly with regard to the use of DNA and modern science. It is believed that to exhume the bodies of the deceased would perhaps help. Other questions also arise and all those issues will be examined.
The Minister has stated time and again and I stated yesterday and repeat today that we will assist the families in any way we can in regard to further submissions the Stardust committee wishes to make and the information that has been made available. If there is an issue with regard to a further investigation, whether it is a Judge Cory-type investigation or another type, we can make the relevant decisions. I cannot pre-empt that process. I will not go against Garda or Forensic Science Laboratory advice, or that of whoever else it is necessary to get advice from. However, we should at least get the advice and then we will make a judgment on it.
11:00 am
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Was the Taoiseach's attention drawn to an assertion that an astounding 70,000 to 120,000 construction workers are being criminally denied their legal and mandatory pension rights by construction bosses, which means that, apart from losing pension entitlements, they are deprived of death in service benefits and sickness benefits? It was not a revolutionary socialist or a trade union activist who made these assertions a few days ago, but the sober Office of the Pensions Ombudsman. The Pensions Ombudsman also pointed out that failing to put workers on a pension scheme is a criminal offence subject to fines and-or imprisonment. This means that up to 130,000 workers are the subject of criminal acts on building sites each day, which have been going on for years and decades.
Can the Taoiseach name one construction boss, builder or developer who has spent one hour in jail for this criminal denial of workers' rights? He cannot, because it has not happened. However, three bricklayers who put a picket on a Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council building site protesting anti-trade union practices found themselves in the High Court and within days in Mountjoy jail where they now languish. The learned judges' eyes are wide open to breaches of their injunctions in favour of construction employers, but their wigs apparently fall over their eyes when it comes to routine criminality from those same construction bosses towards workers.
What has the Taoiseach to say to these workers and their families who are cheated of their pension rights, often through questionable practices and intimidation or through the rampant culture of greed which Government policies have spawned in the construction industry? The Taoiseach has stood over a roller coaster of greed by speculators and developers.
Can workers hope for any vindication of their pension rights when Ministers, those sitting by the Taoiseach now, routinely turn the sod on State projects awarded to major builders who are in flagrant breach of pension rights, a regular occurrence? Is the Taoiseach going to do anything about this sorry situation?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Any employers, whether in the construction industry or elsewhere, who abuse the rights of workers with regard to their pensions, occupational health or other benefits are entirely wrong. Their actions are inappropriate. I understand that in some cases contributions were taken but credits were not given. Such cases are illegal.
These are serious matters and have been highlighted for some time. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, has been engaged in meetings with the construction industry unions on the issue. He has heard submissions from the workers on the extent of the abuses that have taken place and has been involved in discussions with the Minister for Finance to make whatever changes or regulations are necessary to try to end the abuse. The Pensions Board is also dealing with the issues. These matters are under way.
Construction is a large part of the economy. I do not have the figures on the extent of pension cover in the industry, but I am sure the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and the Minister for Finance do. They have been engaged in trying to rectify the breaches and deal with the issues raised by the Deputy.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I believe the Taoiseach is not fully aware of the situation which has been brought out by recent reports and the ombudsman. The Pensions Ombudsman says that construction companies which criminally neglect pension obligations to workers have a 22% commercial advantage over compliant builders. The reality seems to be that the neoliberal obsession driven by the Government is leading to outright criminality.
I reckon that a minimum €120 million a year is being stolen by big developers from workers' pension entitlements, but not one of them has faced any serious rigour of the law. However, in Carlow District Court in 2004, an unfortunate recipient of unemployment assistance to the tune of under €3,000 was sent to jail for six months for falsely claiming assistance.
What has been the contribution of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs? He brought out a weak press statement a few months ago. He agonises continually about a new mandatory pension scheme, but we have one, that should be underpinned by law, of which the bosses are in blatant breach. What is he doing about the situation? A weak press statement is hardly an answer.
The Government has turned a blind eye because, among the 12 developers who have become billionaires as a result of Government policies and among the hundreds who sit down with the Taoiseach at Cairde Fianna Fáil fundraising bashes are these very criminals who deny workers their pension rights. That is the reason the Taoiseach is soft on them. I and the Independent colleagues beside me will return to this issue in a few months. If tens of thousands more construction workers are not on pension schemes then, we will want to know why.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As I said, if the Deputy has information about who is in breach of the regulations, he should give it to the ombudsman. With regard to his point, it was this Government that set up the Pensions Ombudsman in 2003, and the office became operational——
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the Taoiseach know what the ombudsman said? He does not seem to be aware of what he said.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach, without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The office became operational in autumn 2003. It is Government action that has led to a position where pension schemes are being investigated and the Deputy should not forget that. The level of the breaches in this area is coming out through the work of the Pensions Ombudsman. It is not true the Minister issued a weak press release. It is true that he has engaged with the construction unions to try to ensure we can deal with these issues. It was not today nor yesterday that the issue of breaches in CIF pensions arose. The issue has been around for years. People have worked on sites and their contributions were not credited or dealt with by members of the industry. It has been a long-term issue. Therefore, having stronger legislation, a Pensions Ombudsman and proper investigation of the operation of pension schemes are hugely beneficial.
The Minister has listened to the unions, which have the information. The ombudsman's research has also been helpful. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, has had meetings with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to see how we can improve the scheme to ensure it is statutorily tight. As the Deputy said, there is legislation, but it has not worked for decades and that is part of the difficulty. The Pensions Board has also examined the matter.
There are more people working in the construction industry who are entitled to their benefits. They should be in a pensions scheme and should have their contributions credited. I am sure a significant number of people are in a scheme, but where they are not we must take corrective action. That is what is going on in the current discussions.