Dáil debates
Thursday, 15 December 2005
Other Questions.
Adult Education.
2:00 pm
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Question 7: To ask the Minister for Education and Science if she will respond to the sense of betrayal felt by the TUI and its members who work in the further education sector at the failure to allocate funding in the Estimates and budget 2006 to implement the McIver report; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [39651/05]
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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Question 8: To ask the Minister for Education and Science when it is planned to implement the recommendations of the McIver report, in view of the serious concerns expressed by the TUI and others. [39580/05]
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Question 26: To ask the Minister for Education and Science the number of recommendations from the McIver report which have been implemented to date in 2005; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [39549/05]
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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Question 60: To ask the Minister for Education and Science when the implementation of the recommendations in the McIver report will commence; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [39168/05]
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 8, 26 and 60 together.
The Government believes strongly in the value of this sector and will continue to prioritise it for resources and supports in the years ahead. Improving participation and achievement at every level of education is a key priority. We have put the resources and supports in place to ensure a wide range of course options is available in the further and higher education sectors for young people who wish to continue their studies after second level and people returning to education later in life.
The principal objectives of the measures and programmes funded by my Department in adult and further education are to meet the needs of young early school leavers and provide second chance education for adults and vocational education and training for labour market entrants and re-entrants. To ensure these objectives become a reality, a range of provisions is available in further education. This includes such full-time programmes as Youthreach, senior Traveller training centres, the vocational training opportunities scheme, post-leaving certificate courses and part-time initiatives such as the back to education initiative and the adult literacy and community education schemes. These programmes are funded by my Department and operated and managed primarily by the vocational education committees.
Further education is expanding. For example, in the literacy sector the adult literacy client numbers have increased from 5,000 in 1997 to almost 34,000 in 2005. Post-leaving certificate courses represent another option available within the further education suite. Government support for this important sector is clear from the fact that we have increased the number of PLC places by 60% since 1996-97. The number of PLC places approved for 2005-06 has increased by more than 1,600 on the 2004-05 level. The number of approved places in the sector now stands at 30,188.
Government support for the sector is evident not only in the expansion of approved places and teachers but also in the introduction of maintenance grants for students with effect from September 1998. Tuition fees for PLC courses are waived and the PLC maintenance grant scheme operates on the same basis as in higher education.
The 2006 Estimates include provision for the cost of the extra 100 teaching posts being provided for the post-leaving certificate courses in the current academic year. They also provide for an increase of 19% in the VTOS non-pay grant in 2006. PLC students are included in the calculation of non-pay budgets issued to schools in respect of running costs. A supplemental non-pay grant towards running costs specifically for PLC schools is also payable. This will amount to €5.5 million in 2005.
Other developments funded by my Department of direct benefit to the PLC sector include the provision of national certification under the Further Education and Training Awards Council and the development of progression links with higher education in the institutes of technology.
The McIver report contains 21 over-arching recommendations, incorporating 91 sub-recommendations. Having regard to the number and scope of the recommendations in the report, extensive consultations have been held with management and staff interests with regard to such issues as the prioritisation of recommendations, structural changes envisaged in the report, their implications and associated costs in the context of the overall provision of resources for further and adult education. Active consideration is being given to all the issues involved. While this work is ongoing, extra investment has been provided in the 2006 Estimates to develop the PLC sector further and improve supports for other aspects of further and adult education.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I listened carefully to the Minister of State's reply and her response to two earlier priority questions. While I heard a great deal of detail about her areas of responsibility, the questions posed were not answered. What is the exact status of the McIver report? All the education partners who gave time and commitment to contribute to the compilation of the report and signed up to it want an answer. What is the estimated cost of the full implementation of all 21 recommendations?
My third question is for the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin. It is not satisfactory for the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, to talk about all the different things she has to do within her area of responsibility. A special allocation is required to honour the commitments the Minister and her predecessor gave to implement the McIver report. Is it not time for the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, to take charge of that to ensure funding is provided?
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I refute what the Deputy has said about me not answering questions on the McIver report. With respect, the Deputy may not like the answers, but I certainly have directly addressed the issues put to me. I have said this more than once this afternoon, but for the Deputy's sake I will repeat it. I explained that the cost of the McIver report is €48 million. That figure has not been plucked out of the air, but has been agreed with the Department of Education and Science, the IVEA and the TUI. The figure does not incorporate any capital costs, it is just for non-capital costs.
As regards the implementation of the McIver report, there are financial costs involved and it is a complex area requiring consultation, which is already under way. A number of other issues also impact on the whole education system. I look forward to co-operating with that sector on the priorities involved. It has been said that I referred to other issues outside the McIver report. I have other responsibilities in the area of adult and further education. Post-leaving certificate courses constitute an important issue which was the basis for the McIver report. There were concerns about the growth in PLC numbers, with some colleges having numbers in excess of 150. The number of approved places this year is 30,188. To deal with the PLC issue, we have introduced maintenance grants, and tuition fees for PLCs have been waived. This year, some 8,000 PLC grant holders will receive €23 million in direct support. National certification under FETAC has been successfully worked out. The national framework for qualifications is important for the adult and further education sector. The latter area has seen a growth in numbers with an extra 100 posts being put in place for PLCs. In addition, we have examined the area of community education facilitators. I have ensured that 35 community education facilitators are in place across the country and they are doing great work within the VEC system. We have also made grants available.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I asked about the status of the McIver report.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Other issues will come to the fore as we progress further, including the national office for access to higher education. Under the recently announced strategic innovation fund, institutes of higher education will be invited to submit proposals to promote access and progression. That is an important issue in discussing further education.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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What is the status of the McIver report?
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will say it yet again for the Deputy. The McIver report's recommendations will cost €48 million, but we do not have that. Therefore we are working on its implementation through consultation, as funds become available.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Does the Minister of State have a timescale?
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It will happen as soon as the funds become available. I cannot give the Deputy a timescale today.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It does not sound as if the Minister of State has any kind of commitment to it.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There certainly is a commitment. We would not have gone——
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It has been around for several years now.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should let me answer. I do not believe in wasting my time or anybody else's in the sector. There would be no point in having discussions and extensive consultations unless we meant to put those recommendations into action. We must remember that the report has a knock-on effect for the entire education system. There are industrial relations issues that will need a great deal of discussion and consultation with my Department. When we are talking about the PLC provisions——
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I must remind the Minister of State that there is a one-minute time limit on supplementary questions and replies.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to give the fullest answer I can, with your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is erroneous to say that there is just one issue for adult and further education.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister of State should provide an answer.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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McIver is a very important issue and is recognised as such within the Department. I am continuing to work in consultation with the sector as funds become available.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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That is meaningless.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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On the monitor, I listened with interest to the Minister's previous responses to priority questions. Any suggestion that this Government is committed to implementing the McIver report is balderdash. The Minister should kill it now and say that, just as the Programme for Government promised to reduce class sizes, it will not be done during this Government's term in office. She should get it over with and stop giving false hope to thousands of students and the staff involved in further education. It is a political decision and priority is not being given to advance further education and take it out of second level to create its own tier. Its valuable contribution is not being recognised. Will the Minister say that McIver is dead and quit playing political games? The Opposition parties promised that they will implement all the McIver report's recommendations after the next election.
The Minister referred to the 100 new teaching posts provided for further education colleges. I have tabled a written question about this. Why are these concessionary posts? Why are posts not being filled in the Minister, Deputy Hanafin's, own constituency? That is a serious indictment for the Minister at local level.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I do not give preference to my own constituency.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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She will have questions to answer about that. How can the Ministers present expect the PLC sector to be treated seriously if it does not have proper equipment or technical know-how? Can they seriously expect it to progress?
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am somewhat confused by the Deputy's question, which leaves me wondering exactly where the Green Party stands on the McIver report. Does the Deputy want to throw it out?
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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We stand full square behind implementing it.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Rather than making such wild statements, we are interested in trying to work with the sector to ensure that there is implementation.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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It is as good as dead, given the way the Minister of State is going on.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Deputy should listen. There are 91 sub-recommendations in the McIver report, including recommendations with a significant potential impact. For example, the potential impact of a reduction in teaching hours on other levels of education must be considered, in addition to the cost implications of the development of separated capital specifications for the PLC sector. The potential overlap in provision between institutes of technology and further education must also be examined. We need to be able to work out strategically, through extensive consultation, the further delivery of what is in the McIver report. PLC courses have been growing and we recognise that more people are taking up such places at a later age. As I said in my initial reply, we have been able to ensure 1,600 extra approved places compared to last year. We would demonstrate a great lack of interest and concern if we were not able to ensure the allocation of those extra places. The number of such places has risen 60% since 1997. In addition, we have ensured maintenance grants, and tuition fees have been waived. Grants are also available to no less than 8,000 PLC students. Other issues, including certification and career guidance, have been dealt with. I have a particular interest in such guidance for the adult education sector because I trained as a career guidance counsellor. Pathways of progression are important with regard to PLC courses and other areas, including adult and further education for which I have responsibility. We have done that through the national policy framework——
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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——as well as through the guidance, which I have been happy to roll out across the country.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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On a point of order, why is the Minister of State alone in not being time-limited?
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I have pointed out a while ago to the Minister of State the one-minute time limit.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State has spoken of the growth of the further education sector as if she had driven it herself. Effectively, it developed on the cheap. It was driven by those working in it and it has not received any real help from the Government. The Minister of State seems to think it can stay that way. She spoke of consultation, but practically everyone involved sat on the group that produced the McIver report — the IVEA, the joint managerial bodies, the TUI, the STI, the Department itself, and the ACCS. The Minister of State has said that she will have to prioritise. Where is she at, and what kinds of negotiations are ongoing?
Those working in the sector who were outside the gates of Leinster House on budget day were not there for the good of their health but because they do not believe that it is being discussed with them or that any real negotiations are happening. Has the Minister of State made any decisions regarding what will be prioritised? She said to Deputy Shortall that it would depend on when the money became available. Will these negotiations go on until she eventually decides to fund it? No one is necessarily saying that the Minister must release the €48 million immediately, but people want to see a start to the process. If the sum is €48 million now, it will increase the longer she leaves it. People want to see the beginning of an implementation process. Will the Minister of State tell the House when that process will begin, with resources backing it rather than simply talk?
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a question of what I prioritise.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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There is collective responsibility.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have said time and again that I recognise that a tremendous amount of effort has gone into the report. I thank all those stakeholders involved in the discussions. We will have further discussions along the line until every recommendation in the report has been addressed.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot give a timescale for that, nor will I pretend to do so. However, the Government, through the Department of Education and Science, has ensured that it recognises the importance of education for the further and adult sector. The facts that I have highlighted today regarding the PLC sector show very significant improvements this year, and not only in numbers.
I agree with the Deputy when she says that the Department did not drive the numbers. Of course that is not the case. Needs have been addressed by those delivering the service. In recognition of that, we have ensured a tremendous improvement in the posts available and the number of teachers in the system.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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What will be prioritised?
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The question of prioritisation will not be decided by me unilaterally. It will be a question of further discussions and consultations with the sector. Based on that, we will go forward.
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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They do not know either.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I ask the Minister of State once again the status of the McIver report. She has spoken of prioritising. In fairness to everyone involved, they deserve to be told what kind of timescale the Department is working to. Perhaps she might share with us her expected timescale for the full implementation of the report. Behind all the talk from the Minister of State the problem seems to be that implementation of the McIver report has become lost among the other areas of responsibility. Does the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, accept that it is time to seek a specific funding allocation for the McIver report? Those involved in the process deserve that. If she accepts that, can she also tell the House what specific funding is available for the report this year?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Does the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, understand the sense of betrayal and anger among members of the TUI and in the wider sectoral community regarding the lack of implementation of the McIver report in the 2006 budget? Does she value the major contribution to Irish education made by members of the TUI, who have massively supported the development of the economy, the country and society? I have heard the figure of €48 million raised here today. When one sees that the Dublin Port tunnel has run €300 million over budget or that we have wasted €52 million on electronic voting, how can €48 million be an issue given the great importance of education?
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We accept that education is one of the most important issues for Government. That is why I am happy to say that the Department has done extremely well in the Estimates and in the announcements made by the Minister. However, we must ensure that we do not only look at the McIver report, which I consider a very important part of work in adult and further education. When asked about the status of the report, there is a question of prioritisation depending on the Estimates each year. Every Deputy knows that it is so for every issue in every Department. That is how business is run.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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As the Estimates progress.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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To what timescale does the Minister of State expect to work? It is not enough to give a vague answer that it may or may not be implemented.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Minister should be allowed to give her reply.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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If it is not dead, it is on life support.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will advance the McIver report as money becomes available on the basis of priorities. Do the Deputies expect me to underfund such issues as adult literacy, VTOS, Youthreach, senior Traveller training, PLC and BTEI?
Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We expect her to fund this.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We must proceed to Question No. 9.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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She should speak to her senior Minister.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have an envelope of money, and I want to ensure that we advance not only the McIver report but all the other issues for which I have responsibility, including areas of particular disadvantage. We want to ensure that it happens, and I have every confidence that the Government will continue to ensure that moneys are available, not only for the McIver report but for all further and adult education.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We have gone far over the time limit. We must proceed to Question No. 9.