Dáil debates

Tuesday, 13 December 2005

Chief Executive of Centre for Public Inquiry: Statement by Minister.

 

5:00 pm

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am grateful to the Dáil for affording me an opportunity to make a statement to the House. For the information of Members and clarity in proceedings, I am circulating with this statement the reply to the written parliamentary question tabled by Deputy Finian McGrath, the document which was furnished by me to the Irish Independent at its request and published on 26 November last and a transcript of remarks made today on RTE radio by the chairman of the Centre for Public Inquiry.

As a Minister, I am answerable to this House and through it to the people.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister should resign.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, it falls especially to me, along with the Minister for Defence, to safeguard the security of the State and prevent the subversion of our democracy. While I am honoured to hold that position, it is one which is both challenging and demanding, constantly requiring the exercise of good authority in a firm and robust manner. Each of us, as a citizen of Ireland, has rights and duties. Article 9 of the Constitution states that every citizen owes a "fundamental political duty" of "loyalty to the State". It is in the context of this duty of loyalty that we all can rightly claim to exercise our constitutional rights and freedoms.

Under our law, the Provisional IRA is an unlawful organisation because it is a treasonable group which claims that the powers of Government of the Irish people are vested in it and not in the institutions established under our Constitution. Moreover, the IRA has over the years consistently engaged in massive criminality, much of which has been motivated by a desire to build up a vast multi-million euro fund to assist the provisional movement in its quest to obtain political power and a role in the Government of this State.

Apart from major criminal activity, which has been documented in the reports of the Independent Monitoring Commission, the provisional movement has in recent years carried out two spectacular fund-raising criminal acts, namely, the €40 million raid on the Northern Bank carried out days after the breakdown of discussions on the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement last December, and the sale of know-how to the FARC guerrillas in Colombia which was designed to net the provisional movement tens of millions of euro to assist in the provisionals' bid for political power in Ireland, North and South.

As Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, it is my clear duty to prevent and counter this subversive strategy of the provisionals. The fate of Irish democracy in large measure depends upon the capacity of the Government to frustrate the plans of the provisionals to subvert Irish democracy by these unlawful means.

The Constitution provides in Article 40.6.1 that: "The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State". Undoubtedly, the Centre for Public Inquiry, as a body which sought and obtained multi-million euro charitable funds given with the best of motives to be expended for the public good, aspires to be an organ of public opinion, but equally it is one which, in subversive hands, has the capacity to gravely undermine the authority of the State.

I regard it as my clear and unequivocal duty to bring into the public domain the central role played in that body by a person whom the Garda is satisfied participated in an important way in the series of visits to Colombia designed to exchange know-how in terrorism and explosives for massive amounts of cash, apparently to be spent on distorting our democratic process. I reject out of hand the pernicious and absurd argument that, as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I should apply to myself some self-denying ordinance in respect of disclosing in public adverse information about individuals whose actions threaten to subvert our democracy and Constitution, unless such information can be established beyond reasonable doubt by admissible evidence as part of the criminal justice process. I heard with disbelief this argument being advanced today by someone whom I would have expected to understand fully the constitutional role and duty of the Government to use every lawful means to safeguard our democracy and prevent our constitutional order being subverted.

I have been authoritatively advised that it is my legal right and constitutional duty to make public information which is given to me in my role as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform by the Garda Síochána acting as one of the intelligence services of the State when, in my judgment, the public interest so requires. My legal authority for disclosing information in such circumstances is clearly set out in section 4 of the Official Secrets Act 1963. It is not qualified or abridged in any way by the terms of the Garda Síochána Act recently enacted by the Oireachtas — it is expressly preserved by that Statute — nor do the provisions of the Data Protection Act in any way affect data kept for the purpose of safeguarding the security of the State. Nor is there any basis for claiming that the information I gave this House or the document I caused to be published was in any sense confidential or that its release prejudiced any Garda investigation. The passport application form in question was a forgery of a State document originally kept in the possession of the Department of Foreign Affairs. Its disclosure does not breach the confidence or privacy of any private citizen.

I categorically reject any suggestion that my actions in this matter have infringed the very clear and supportive terms of the law of our land. I have acted with good authority in conformity with the law and in fulfilment of my duties as a member of the Executive branch of Government, charged with upholding and defending the Constitution.

The Irish people and this House would have just cause for complaint if I had remained silent and swept these issues under the carpet or left them in ignorance of the major threat to our democratic values, which would have arisen by doing nothing. I would remind the Members of this House of Edmund Burke's observation that "The only thing needed for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing".

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In that context, I must ask whether others have shown the requisite vigour in pursuing these matters. In particular, commentators who never asked the hard questions about an issue that was staring them in the face — since, as the Taoiseach said, all of this was in the public domain a number of years ago — should perhaps pause before condemning those among their colleagues who genuinely sought to educate public opinion in the manner envisaged for a free press by our Constitution.

I enjoy the wholehearted support of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the entire Government in the actions I am taking. I am calling on the responsible Members of this House, in turn, to acknowledge the propriety of each and every action I have taken. It would be a sad day for Ireland if any of my predecessors or successors, faced with the same situation, failed to act as I have done.

Photo of Jim O'KeeffeJim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has attempted to provide post facto justification for behaviour on his part, which was clearly inappropriate and not in keeping with the integrity of his ministerial office. That is the central issue in this debate. Essentially, the Minister has failed to justify his actions and he has signally failed to deal with the central questions that arise in this debate. The first of those questions arises from his statement last Sunday when he said his actions were related to the fact that there were substantial reasons to believe there was a threat to the State's democracy and authority.

The Minister has not explained to the House what was the threat to the State that existed then or now. Let me assure him absolutely that if there is at any stage a threat to the security of this State, as he knows, he will have absolute support from Fine Gael for any legitimate action to deal with it. Our problem is that we do not know what the threat is about which he talked. Was it an invasion? Is it supposed to be the importation of arms, or was it just something the Minister dreamed up and then, because it was his post facto opinion, used it as a justification?

Second, if there was any such threat, what is the organisation from which the threat derived? Was it the IRA? Our understanding was that the IRA had gone out of commission and was not now involved in subversion. Is this not accepted by the Minister?

Third, if one is interested in protecting the integrity of the State — and, as mentioned by the Taoiseach, the integrity of the passport system — how does one do that by leaking a document selectively to a particular paper? How does that protect the integrity of anything? It seems to me that any such activity is effectively, as was pointed out to me in an e-mail from a citizen today, filching a potential court document from a file and using it to bolster his case by revealing it in a back-door way. Essentially, the Minister has not given any explanation for that kind of conduct.

Fourth, the Minister says there is no question of affecting any possible trial in the future. Does that mean that he does not want to see anybody, against whom further evidence may subsequently arise, brought before a court? I do not want to go into any detail here, but I would refer to the case of Sophie Toscan du Plantier in my own area of west Cork. Whether through DNA or otherwise, if further evidence arises there I want the person responsible to be brought before the courts. Should the same not apply to what the Minister suggests are actions against the interests of the State in this case? Therefore, was it appropriate for the Minister to deal with the file in his hands and to release a copy from that official file, where the primary evidence would or could be used in a future trial?

This is an extraordinary situation and in my long time in the House I have never seen anything like it. What is even more unusual is that the Minister does not realise it is extraordinary, which is probably the biggest concern we have. The real concern among many people is where this will lead to and what kind of precedent the Minister has created. Who will be the next target for the Minister's ire? Does he believe that in his role as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform he is able to use official files in his possession as part of his political armoury to target individuals?

I have no brief for Mr. Frank Connolly. As far as I am concerned, he has serious questions to answer, in particular concerning his activities in April 2001, but that is not the issue at all. The issue is the behaviour of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and whether it was appropriate in the circumstances. There is real public concern that there may be a continuation of this type of activity. In the fight against criminality and subversion, is it not important that the people should have full confidence, faith and trust in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? The Minister is at the head of the fight. Does he not appreciate how he has undermined that trust and confidence? Does he not realise, even now, that it would be in his interests, for however long he remains in that office, to have that trust and confidence of the people, and that he should make efforts to restore it? Does he not accept simply that, at the end of the day, it is not proper procedure to leak from an official file, a Garda file or wherever it came from, a document or documents that could be primary evidence in subsequent court proceedings? Does he not accept, even at this stage, that activity of that type is utterly inappropriate? He spoke about protecting the security of the State, but does he not also accept that where there is genuine legitimate action to be taken on his part, he will get the full support of this House? He cannot ask for the support of this House or the general public, however, for inappropriate behaviour.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The title of this debate is ill chosen. It should reflect the fact that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has questions to answer as well. The Minister is also in the dock but that is not reflected in the title of the debate.

The Minister shocked the nation with his candid admission on RTE radio yesterday that he deliberately supplied documents concerning an ongoing Garda investigation into a forged passport to his favoured Irish Independent journalist. At the time of the leaking of the documents to only one journalist, the Minister made no statement of his intent or purpose. It was a total secret and nobody knew anything about it. In the Dáil last week, however, when he answered a question, he deliberately departed from the thrust of the question to provide confidential information about a former journalist, Frank Connolly, the director of the Centre for Public Inquiry.

On the RTE programme yesterday, under pressure, the Minister explained his eccentric behaviour by invoking national security for his actions. That is not what the Taoiseach said earlier — he was concerned about the integrity of a passport. The Minister said he was concerned about the integrity of national security.

His actions and statements are absolutely unprecedented. He has moved into uncharted territory where no Cabinet Minister has ever dared to venture before. He has determined that he, as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, can look into his own heart and decide what constitutes a threat to national security. He can then put confidential material into the public domain by whatever mechanism he chooses. After that, the Minister can become DPP, judge, jury and executioner of the persons identified on the file. The Minister believes that he can bypass Article 38 of the Constitution, which requires due process in the investigation and prosecution of an offence. The Minister has not stated whether he has supplied any other documents from Garda files or from the Department of Foreign Affairs to the same journalist or to others. Perhaps he will tell us that in his replies. Did he act in the interests of national security or did he simply leak the information? Neither has the Minister stated whether he intends to supply documents in future to selected journalists in the interests of national security or otherwise.

It is ironic that this comes from a Minister who recently raged so strongly against gardaí leaking confidential information to the media on ongoing Garda investigations and who, in the Garda Síochána Act 2005, imposed the heavy penalty of five years' imprisonment or a fine of €50,000 on any garda found guilty of such an offence. He introduced an amendment to the same Bill arrogating to himself the legal right to access all Garda files at his whim. Now he has apparently begun not just to access files but selectively to release information from them, concerning not only the forged passport but the information relating thereto, to selected journalists. At the time, the Labour Party totally opposed the amendment, knowing that it would be wide open to abuse. We certainly did not expect to be proven right so quickly.

Given the events, would it not be preferable for the Minister to lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas the entirety of the Garda file on Frank Connolly and his alleged trip to Colombia rather than having them filtered through the editorial processes of the Irish Independent? Perhaps the people might then be able to make up their own minds on these issues. While he is at it, would he not also lay before the Houses the Garda files on all Deputies suspected of close connections with the provisional movement, including one Member who he has already alleged is a member of the IRA army council? If the security of the State is so much at risk, would it not be better to brief the Oireachtas and all the journalists of the country now?

It is not desirable in principle or in practice that any officer of the State should have untrammelled and unreviewable powers of access to secret files and of dissemination of related information, either on or off the record, circumventing the judicial or any other adjudicative process, in the absence of redress for those whose rights are adversely affected. Might the hostility shown to this individual, which seems to justify the breaking of all precedent and the making of new assertions of constitutional Executive prerogative, have anything to do with the institution for which Frank Connolly works, the Centre for Public Inquiry? Does the Minister agree with the Tánaiste's outrageous statement on the matter to the effect that the establishment of such a watchdog body is "absolutely sinister and inappropriate"? If so, will he outline the next individuals or institutions against which the Government is preparing to take action?

Can the Minister really expect that a loyal Sancho Panza in the Irish Independent, heroic though he may be and mighty with his pen, will demolish all the giants and ugly windmills that Don Quixote, the Minister, perceives to threaten the national security landscape of this little island?

Photo of Ciarán CuffeCiarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I intend to share time with Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Finian McGrath.

The events of the past few days have a dangerous similarity to Senator McCarthy's witch-hunts in the United States in the 1950s. Demagoguery, arrogance and innuendo were used then to destroy people's careers and they are being used to the same ends by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform today. There is a touch of Senator McCarthy about the Minister, Deputy McDowell. The Minister's actions and allegations have compromised the separation of powers that has underpinned this State since its foundation. He has undermined the gardaí and the Director of Public Prosecutions and he has failed to clarify today how the interests of the State were or are threatened by an individual.

If he did not get that information from Garda files, where did he get it? Perhaps the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has questions to answer regarding whether he handed over information from the passports section to the Minister, and perhaps he should clarify what he knew and what questions he was asked. He should offer a statement to the House too. It is worth remembering that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, introduced amendments to the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 that would jail a garda for up to five years if he or she had put information into the public domain; yet the Minister, through his actions, has politicised the judicial process and undermined democracy in this State. At this point, he should resign.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I charge that the Minister has acted as judge and jury against a private citizen. He has violated Articles 38 and 40 of the Constitution, which provide that no citizen shall be tried, save in due course of law, and that all citizens shall be held equal before the law. In what way was the security of this State threatened in the past few weeks? How exactly did the Minister envisage that giving confidential Garda files to a newspaper would address that supposed threat and advance democracy and the security of this State? He has failed in his opening remarks to explain exactly how due process was safeguarded or even observed by his actions. Does he believe in the presumption that someone is innocent unless proven guilty?

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What about Jean McConville?

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister must state how many other requests from Independent Newspapers for confidential Garda information have resulted in his leaking material to the media. Is he the "Garda source" so often reported in the tabloids? The Minister has breached the Garda Síochána Act 2005, legislation introduced by him, by disclosing confidential Garda information, and as such, he should be charged. The criminal offence is punishable by five years' imprisonment. I call on him to resign and, if he does not, the Taoiseach has a duty to sack him.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Today is a very sad one for the justice system as it marks a step backwards regarding human rights on the island. It is not the first time in the history of our small State that a Minister for Justice has trampled over the rights of our citizens. It is a disgrace, a scandal and an abuse of power. It is a shame that any Minister for Justice should turn his back on the decent, fundamental principles of justice. The Minister has done our democracy a major disservice and hidden behind Dáil privilege to undermine the backbone of our judicial system, which guarantees the presumption of innocence until one has been proven guilty in a court of law.

I agree with Mr. Justice Flood's comments this morning that we must stand up for the system and guarantee our citizens their rights under the Constitution. There has been nothing progressive or democratic about the actions or words of the Minister over the past few days. He has undermined the justice system and damaged the independence and integrity of the DPP's office. Those are serious issues, and it is time the Minister resigned. We cannot have a Minister who thinks himself above the law or that law and order are his to decide. The Minister would be at home in some right wing government in South America.

I also accuse him of being a hypocrite regarding the leaking of Garda files to a journalist to destroy Mr. Connolly and the great work of the Centre for Public Inquiry in rooting out sleaze and corruption in this country. In recent days we have seen more evidence of it in my constituency, with great damage to politics. Regarding Chuck Feeney and the Centre for Public Inquiry, I urge them to reconsider funding instead of listening to the Minister or his party, who from day one wanted to take out the centre. This country needs such groups, and Frank Connolly has been a tireless investigative journalist who exposed scandals, corruption and sleaze. Many people knew that elements would take him out.

This debate is about a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who abused his power to trample on the rights of a citizen and seriously damage the integrity of the justice system.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister will take questions until 6.20 p.m.

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy asked the question. He got the answer.

6:00 pm

Photo of Jim O'KeeffeJim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister explain the reason he leaked material from an official file to a newspaper and the basis for his claims that in so doing, he was protecting the security of the State? Will he confirm whether, in so protecting the security of the State, the telephone of Mr. Frank Connolly was tapped or the telephone of any other person associated with Mr. Frank Connolly? Will the Minister inform the House whether he leaked, gave or made available any other official documents on other occasions to the same member of the media or any other media?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I did not leak any document from any file. I was asked by Independent Newspapers whether I would be prepared to give it a document in the possession of the State, which is the forged application form for a passport in the name of Mr. Johnston, which was used by the perpetrators on one of the journeys as part of the Colombia three episode. I decided that I would do so for proper reasons to establish the truth. If any other journalist had asked me for that at the time, I would have given it to him or her.

The Deputies opposite seem to ignore the fact that as far back as the early summer of 2002, all these facts were in the public domain — that Mr. Connolly travelled to Colombia, used the name "Johnston" on his travels and was in possession of a passport. All these facts were in an article in a major Sunday newspaper——

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What was the newspaper?

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Sunday Independent.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——yet it appears to be a huge surprise to people opposite that this is the case.

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe knows well that no Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has ever commented in this House on whether a person's telephone has been tapped, and I do not intend to do that. That is a fact.

Photo of Bernard AllenBernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That was a "Yes".

Photo of Jim O'KeeffeJim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does that answer speak for itself?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I reiterate I did not leak any document. I did not have any official file on this matter and I did what I said I did and what I said yesterday openly and candidly on radio. I arranged for a document which the Irish Independent sought to be delivered to it, and it was looking for it for some time.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister leaked it.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is no question of it being a confidential document. It is a forgery. Whose confidential interests are protected by keeping it private? What person has a right to say it should not be published because it could affect him or her?

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Garda Síochána. The Director of Public Prosecutions.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Nobody has a right to do so. Let us be clear about this. This was a document which was sent to the Department of Foreign Affairs by people who wanted to obtain a forged passport in the name of a real person who had nothing to do with it and who forged the signature of a priest in Belfast on it. All I have done is to give to the Irish Independent, at its request, a copy of the forgery in order that people in this country can determine where the truth lies.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister leaked it.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will finish on this point. There appear to be people in this House who are afraid of the truth.

Photo of Michael D HigginsMichael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister knows who said that in the 1950s.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is not a citizen safe with the Minister. He is a disgrace.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have major concerns about the Minister.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There appear to be people in this House who have a deep aversion to the truth emerging in these matters. They are not by any means universally representative of their parties because I want to put on the record of this House that in the summer of this year, I was approached by a senior Opposition Front Bench Member——

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Here we go.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——and asked to ensure that the truth about these matters emerged.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not sure what the Minister is referring to but perhaps he would put the name into the Dáil record for us rather than releasing it to a journalist.

The Minister said he did not leak any document but gave a document——

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Upon request.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——on request. How did the journalist we are speaking about know that the Minister had the document? As the document belonged to the Department of Foreign Affairs, which the Minister admitted, did the journalist in question know that the Minister had the document or that he was the person to ask to get it from the Department? Did the Minister go to that Department and request this document that was part of an ongoing Garda investigation and that might have been needed for a future prosecution? That document would then have been contaminated with the possibility that it could never have been used again. Is that what the Minister is telling us he did?

What were the issues of national security that required the Minister to act in this fashion? He has not answered that question. If there were issues of national security, the Members of this House should know them. This is the body that has the responsibility for ensuring that the people are protected. It does not rest only on the Minister's shoulders. He kept the document to himself all this time, harbouring it until he found a journalist to whom to give it. He protected the integrity of the document but how was he protecting the integrity of the State by keeping it a secret, one which has now come out by chance? The Minister has no credibility. He does not expect us to believe this. A child would not believe what he is saying on this matter.

Why did the Minister not go to Mr. Justice Fergus Flood or Professor Enda McDonagh with the information he had, or did he do this? Mr. Justice Flood is an eminent lawyer. He was chairman of a tribunal, a judge in the Special Criminal Court and a man who knew well about these matters of national security. He was a man who could be trusted through his experience. Professor Enda McDonagh is an eminent philosopher and theologian. Surely he could be trusted to go to about this matter, even if the Minister was not prepared to tell the Members of this House or any other journalist about it.

It seems strange that the next investigation the Centre for Public Inquiry was about to embark on was an inquiry into the establishment of a prison at Thornton Hall and all the circumstances surrounding it. Can the Minister tell the House categorically that he knew nothing about the intention of the centre to embark on such an investigation?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The first I heard of any such suggestion was today in the House. I had no notice of the agenda of that body.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister usually knows everything.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The intelligence was pretty good.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am telling the Deputy the truth. He may not like the truth but I am telling him the truth.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is there a file on it somewhere?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When it became apparent to the Government that Mr. Connolly was the chief executive of this organisation, I had discussions with my colleagues in Government and I agreed that I would approach Chuck Feeney——

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

But not the judge.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——and ask him to review his support for this institution because of the involvement of Mr. Connolly in the trip which was the prequel to the Colombia three and part of the same pattern of events. It was my intention in going to America earlier this year to see Mr. Feeney there but unfortunately he was not there. Eventually he saw both the Taoiseach and me in Dublin and I intimated all of these and other matters to him at that meeting.

I echo what the Taoiseach said today about national security. In the summer of this year people called for this House to be reconvened. People said that the interests of Ireland, its reputation and so on were massively compromised by the activities of the Colombia three and their presence on this island.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That was six months ago.

Photo of Liz McManusLiz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister still has not answered the question.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I ask the Deputy to listen to me. Now we are suddenly being told that this does not have a security dimension. I do not think anybody listened to the remarks I made earlier. I reiterate that I am satisfied on intelligence grounds——

Photo of Arthur MorganArthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No way.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——that the purpose of the visit of the Colombia three and the series of visits in question was to arrange for an exchange of know-how in terrorism and explosives for tens of millions of dollars which was to be brought to the island of Ireland to be used in subverting the democratic process.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister has done nothing about it.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Members of the Opposition have a blind spot if they cannot see this affects the security of the State or represents a subversion of democracy.

Photo of Ciarán CuffeCiarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister appears to be saying the threat to national security lay in the possibility of external funding being provided to the Provisional IRA. Did he feel it was the threat of external funding for the Provisional IRA that posed a threat to the State? If so, what faith does he have in the peace process at this stage?

Photo of Arthur MorganArthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister has always opposed the peace process.

Photo of Ciarán CuffeCiarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

How did the Minister obtain the documentation he has used? From whom did he obtain it and when?

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He obtained it from the Sunday Independent.

Photo of Ciarán CuffeCiarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When did Independent Newspapers first approach the Minister looking for this documentation? In what form was this request made?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Independent Newspapers made a verbal request to me approximately ten days before I decided to release the documentation to it. I released the information to the Sunday Independent because it was asserted on a radio programme that there was no substance to these allegations and I believed that the truth must come out. The people are entitled to the truth.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What about the Houses of the Oireachtas?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The repatriation of tens of millions of dollars to Ireland in exchange for providing expertise to FARC guerillas in Colombia with regard to techniques for causing explosions and killing hundreds of people is deeply subversive of our national interest. The repatriation of this money and its expenditure on the democratic process here is equally subversive of our democratic process.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If Opposition Deputies do not disagree with this——

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Government plans to pardon these people.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am fascinated by people who are willing to stand up in this House and pretend that no wrongdoing took place in Colombia and that these men were bird watchers, tourists or people studying the peace process.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Who said that?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We should face up to reality.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Why was the evidence not produced at the trial?

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Nobody said that.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Stagg should stop shouting. If we ever had a Minister for Justice——

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is lying to the House.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If we ever had a Minister for Justice who was willing to believe these men visited Colombia for bird watching, studying the peace process or as tourists, we would be in a sorry state.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Who said that? Who believes it?

Photo of Jim O'KeeffeJim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, believed it.

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe defended them.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am proud to say to this House that every single step I have taken in this matter has been to ensure that the Irish people know——

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Regarding the trial in Colombia——

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If the Opposition does not want to listen to me, I will sit down.

Photo of Ciarán CuffeCiarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

One of our party members, Ingrid Bettancourt, has been in captivity in Colombia for the past two years. Therefore, the Minister should not imply that we sympathise with FARC because we have never sympathised with it and never will. He has not answered the question I asked him about how he obtained the documentation in question, from whom and when.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Ó Caoláin has the floor.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have the floor.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Ó Caoláin should allow me to answer the question instead of shouting me down.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Chair calls on Deputy Ó Caoláin to speak.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In order to brief Mr. Chuck Feeney on the real threat to Irish democracy posed by allowing the Centre for Public Inquiry to be manned by a person who had engaged in that process, I got a briefing from the Garda Síochána and I had the document in question given to me in that context.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister's head is full of nonsense. My colleagues and I will face the Minister in every electoral contest armed only with whatever skills we have been born with and whatever funding we can raise legitimately, such as I have depended on in every election I have contested, during which I have faced all of the different voices in this House. To promote or perpetuate the notion that the opposite is true is completely false and subverts democracy. It is time for the Minister to face the fact that there is a changed political dispensation on this island, one which he must face on a fair and level playing field, as we must.

Given the Minister's antipathy to the political beliefs I hold, what were the other motives behind his decision? Were there concerns regarding the Centre for Public Inquiry? Did he or those around him have concerns about matters relating to Shell Oil, the Corrib gas pipeline or links to political figures with views and aspirations akin to the Minister's? The Minister was asked earlier where he received the documentation that he circulated in the House today. How did he come by it? Did he deliver the documentation directly to the journalist in question or did he use a conduit? Where did the transfer of documentation take place? What exactly did the Minister do in this little exercise of subterfuge, which he has clearly enjoyed?

How many times has the Minister facilitated requests from the media and abused his position as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? The question only relates to his ministerial tenure. Has he provided documentation, confirmation or other information pertaining to citizens or any other group to members of the media? I am aware that posing the question in this fashion probably lets the Minister off the hook. Other Deputies in this House believe that he should not have passed on such information. How many times has he provided information to members of the press in the same way as he has exercised and abused his position with regard to Mr. Connolly and the Centre for Public Inquiry? Who were the people concerned? Is he prepared to guarantee that information received by him with regard to telephone tapping has not been provided to members of the press or will not be provided in the future?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

With regard to Deputy Ó Caoláin's wild fantasies——

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They belong only to the Minister.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This case was unique in that a body charged with upholding ethical values in the Irish political system under its own constitution chose as its chief executive a person who had been publicly described as far back as 2002 as having visited Colombia under a false name in a visit prior to that of the Colombia three. Mr. Justice Flood is on record today as saying that he only knew Mr. Connolly for one year and knew only that he had been a journalist. These were unique circumstances. Mr. Connolly's activities in Colombia and the fact that the enterprise was designed to bring back funds to Ireland to pervert the democratic process posed a threat to this country. I discussed the matter with my colleagues in Government and undertook to raise the matter with Mr. Feeney with a view to persuading him to discontinue his support for Mr. Connolly in his role as chief executive of the Centre for Public Inquiry.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

How did the Minister obtain and transfer the document?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have already told Deputy Cuffe that, in order to brief Mr. Feeney, I asked the Garda Síochána to give me a copy of the particular form, which it did.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister has denied himself.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have already given the answer to Deputy Cuffe. I do not accept Deputy Ó Caoláin's argument about the level playing field. I believe that north of the Border the Deputy's party is engaged in falsification of its electoral expenditure. It is fanciful to suggest that in the last elections his party spent less than the Alliance Party in a massive campaign in Northern Ireland, as it has claimed.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We are just prepared to work harder.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The provisional movement is in possession of tens of millions of euro.

Photo of Arthur MorganArthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Centre for Public Inquiry is not the provisional movement.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It continued to accumulate tens of millions of euro right up to the time of the Northern Bank robbery. If it was not being used for military purposes, I must come to the conclusion that it was being used for the purpose of fighting elections.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister has come to the wrong conclusions.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Every normal person in Ireland believes that to be the case.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Perhaps the Minister would like to tell the House that he got his own €100,000 contribution at a function in London.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is fantasy.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Jim O'KeeffeJim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister clarify the threat to the security of the State? Did he believe FARC money was going to fund the CPI or a political party? If either was the case, how did it justify his actions regarding Mr. Connolly? If he believed it was his clear and unequivocal duty to bring this matter into the public domain, why did he have to wait for a request from Mr. Sam Smyth of the Irish Independent to release a copy of this document from the official files?

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The issue is not whether Mr. Connolly did or did not do what the Minister claimed. The fact is that the Minister cannot prove it. The reality is that he has set out to destroy the Centre for Public Inquiry because the Government does not want it investigating issues that have embarrassed it, such as the case of the Shell pipeline, or does not want to risk embarrassing the Minister in the case of the massive funds given by him to purchase Thornton Hall. Is he afraid that the centre might go on to investigate why the Government has given the natural gas and oil fields off the west coast to multinational corporations for not a penny in royalties?

If the Minister claims that millions of euro as a result of cocaine trafficking were to be imported into this country for political reasons, that is a devastating charge. Where is the evidence? Why does the Minister not prove his case? If he claims to be concerned about this, he should put the evidence in front of the people, prove the charge and then we can take it seriously.

Photo of Billy TimminsBilly Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I can understand why a Minister would put information out under the Official Secrets Act, but he has got into trouble from some quarters owing to the manner in which he released the information. Would he look at the feasibility of once a year briefing the House and taking questions and answers on matters that need to be made public?

The Minister outlined the difficulty regarding the Colombia three, about which I am confused. Was it not this Government that put up money to get them out on bail? How was taxpayers' money used to get these people out on bail if that is the case? From where did the pressure come? Between the time the appeal began and the final judgment occurred, why did the Government not enter into talks to establish an extradition treaty with Colombia? That never happened.

I listened to Mr. John O'Connor of An Bord Pleanála at a committee when he spoke about its inquiry into the Rossport pipeline. He stated that there was a certain amount of insinuation which was unjustified. He dealt with it in detail. The insinuation in the CPI document was unfounded. An inference was drawn about meetings with the Government which incorrectly portrayed the situation.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Having briefed Mr. Feeney on the issue, I had hoped he would see that it was inappropriate to have such a person in a position of such importance and that the CPI would replace Mr. Connolly.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister could not get him into court, so he tried to destroy him.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There was great resistance to such a proposition.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Why did the Minister not go to Mr. Justice Flood?

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When I heard Mr. Connolly on the radio repeatedly saying that these allegations lacked substance, I decided that I would accede to the request of Independent Newspapers to give it a copy of the application form so that the truth of this matter would be established.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As a former officer of the courts, the Minister is a disgrace.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not the case that I thought that FARC money was going to go to the CPI. The CPI was very adequately funded, as the Deputy knows. It is my view that the provisional movement, after its second ceasefire, sent that team to Colombia to bring money back to Ireland in exchange——

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is deflecting from the central issue that if he believes Mr. Connolly is guilty, he should charge him.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——for know-how in terrorism and explosives, which has cost the lives of hundreds of people since in Colombia.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister will not bring him before the court because he does not have enough evidence. This is scandalous and the Minister should resign.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy must allow the Minister to reply.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Timmins asked why the Irish Government assisted in the provision of bail for the Colombia three. This happened at the request of the gentlemen behind him who all claimed that lives of the Columbia three were in danger if they remained in prison. They skipped bail as soon as they were given it. The Irish Government——

(Interruptions).

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Order, please.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thought the Deputy claimed to be a democrat.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am a democrat, but I will not sit here and listen to the Minister's lies.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Irish Government was told by Deputy Finian McGrath and others that the lives of these men were in danger as long as they were in prison. As a humanitarian gesture inspired by these gentlemen and no one else, they got bail and then they skipped it. That is what happened.