Dáil debates

Wednesday, 9 November 2005

Ceisteanna — Questions.

Legislative Programme.

11:00 am

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach his Department's legislative priorities for the remainder of the 29th Dáil; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24368/05]

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach his Department's legislative programme for the current Dáil session; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25205/05]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach his Department's legislative programme for the current Dáil session; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25343/05]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach his Department's legislative programme for the current Dáil session; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27690/05]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach his Department's legislative priorities for the remainder of the current Dáil; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28678/05]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.

My Department has two items of legislation for the current Dáil session — the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill 2002 and the Statute Law Revision (Pre-1922) Bill 2004. The National Economic and Social Development Office Bill 2002 is awaiting Report Stage while the Statute Law Revision (Pre-1922) Bill 2004 is awaiting Committee Stage. We hope these Bills will be taken shortly.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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As the Taoiseach will know, the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill 2002 was initiated in 2002 but it has still not been enacted. I wish to make a suggestion regarding the North-South civic consultative forum provided for in the Good Friday Agreement. Would it be possible to deal with this issue by way of an amendment to the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill? There is no reason the National Economic and Social Development Office should not take on that responsibility as well. It would be a quick way to deal with something to which we all gave allegiance in the Good Friday Agreement.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I presume the Deputy is talking about the North-South consultative forum. I will certainly consider that. I do not know how much work has been done but I will check to see if that could be done. I have no objections. As I said before, the fact this Bill has not been passed is not a huge difficulty but it is important in the long term in that it relates to people's pension rights and other issues. I would like the Bill to be passed, although I accept it is not an urgent matter. Perhaps I will consider that to see if it can be done. If it can be done, I would have no problem with it.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach is responsible for referenda. We had the Order for Second Stage of the 28th Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2005, which was a prerequisite for a referendum. Will the Taoiseach indicate if that legislation will be brought forward in the future or is it in abeyance? Does it depend on factors outside his control or can he indicate if he has a date in mind?

We discussed North-South bodies earlier and the Taoiseach said he would consider the obstacles, as he saw them, in the way of the register for persons considered unsafe to work with children legislation. Has he had an opportunity to do so? Will it be possible to overcome those obstacles given that in the North, a different view seems to have been taken, namely, that it is possible to continue and not to be held up by the lack of institutions there? Has there been progress on that issue?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the second matter, I have asked the Minister and the officials to examine that. I raised it with them last Thursday when I was in the North. We await a response but I have asked the Minister to give it priority.

On the Deputy's first question on the referendum on the EU constitution, as of now, it will not arise in the short term. A review and an examination is taking place everywhere. I welcome what is happening here where many debates and discussions are taking place at different levels. Many politicians have been involved in some of the debates and discussions I attended, which is good. The more extensive the debate throughout the winter and spring, the better.

The Austrian Presidency next June will report on where to go. However, I do not believe the French or the Dutch will make announcements on this in the short term. The Dutch are very adamant that they will not return to this in the lifetime of their current government. No one has contradicted that. The French face a slightly different debate. They have other debates with which to contend. I do not believe this issue will come up before the French presidential election so I do not see it arising in the lifetime of this Dáil.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Is the Taoiseach ruling out any possibility of a referendum on the EU constitution even assuming that he maintains this Dáil for another 18 months? Does he agree that even if he did, it is very unlikely it would be passed considering that his former Minister for Finance is hell-bent on legalising cheap labour regimes within the European Union in the form of the services——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise out of these questions.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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——legislation he is trying to introduce to formalise the race to the bottom?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The French election will be in summer 2007. The Austrian Presidency could get agreement that other countries could go ahead. There is now a majority of 13 or 14 countries and all the indications are that another three or four will definitely move. We are moving to a position where we are down to the last five or six next year. The Austrian Presidency might say the others should go ahead with the exception of the two. In that case, we would proceed. However, I do not believe that is likely to happen. I believe people will wait until after the French presidential election but perhaps they will change their minds over the next nine months or so.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach bring forward legislation to provide for any constitutional changes in the remainder of the current Dáil? For instance, in the area of Seanad reform, many reports have been presented recommending specific changes in the arrangements for the election to and operation of the House within the Oireachtas. Will the Government bring forward a package of constitutional changes? Will the Taoiseach consider the introduction of a list system for Seanad elections, thus providing access for the electorate throughout the island of Ireland and the Irish diaspora, both of which have been argued for by a variety of sources through the years? What is his view on those matters?

The Government's White Paper on Regulatory Reform contains a list of actions relating to the legislative process. I have raised this with the Taoiseach on a number of occasions and, recently, during the Order of Business on a question regarding the heads of a Bill he encouraged me to table a parliamentary question. I did so and, lo and behold, I was contacted and clarification was requested regarding what the question meant. I still have not received a reply to it and I wonder whether the Taoiseach can give me the information now. This has been flagged by him on many occasions. How many times have the draft heads been circulated in advance of a Bill's publication? I accept it can only be done where it is feasible and appropriate but how many times has that facility, which the Taoiseach heralded, been availed of and provided?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would not rule out constitutional change on issues that are, perhaps, non-constitutional and where referenda are necessary. That could happen at any time following a judgment of the High Court or Supreme Court. There is none currently. Issues have arisen from the various reports of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution, which are being examined by various Departments, and they could result in constitutional referenda. A referendum is not planned but a number of issues are under consideration arising directly from the reports.

On Seanad reform, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is chairing a group. I am not sure where it is at but a parliamentary question to the Minister would be appropriate. Seanad reform is being examined on the basis of the comprehensive report the Seanad itself produced. The House appointed a good group which worked through most of the summer two years ago to produce that report and this is being used as the basis for discussion as well as some of the suggestions and proposals we made about extending membership and making Northern representation permanent. That matter is being examined again. I have no other view outside those views.

With regard to the publication of the heads of a Bill and the regulatory impact analysis, it was suggested it would be a good idea to circulate the heads of a Bill in more areas, though perhaps not all, to generate discussion and to allow interest groups, whether they comprise social partners or others, to make a submission. It is not something new. This has been done over the years in many Departments. It is a good practice but some Departments do not share that view. It is a way of speeding up the process. However, legislation is always better when one consults. Perhaps that is my view because I spent much of my ministerial career in the Department of Labour. I did not invent it but the basis of doing business in that Department was to discuss the heads of a Bill with employers and trade unions which gave them an input and improved the legislation. Perhaps that cannot be done in every area but a number of Ministers are doing it. I welcome that because it is a good way to give people an input. It is not possible when a Bill is put through the House quickly but many Bills take two or three years at least before they get through the system. The publication of the heads of Bills is part of policy and the regulatory impact analysis. It was not previously but the process has become formalised and there is more compulsion on people to do it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Forum on Europe played an important role in the run up the last number of referenda. Given that it is unlikely a referendum on the so-called EU constitution will be held during the remainder of the lifetime of this Administration, what is the future of the forum? Does the Taoiseach expect it to meet on a number of occasions over the next 12 months or whatever? I agree with him that it is unlikely the French or the Dutch will go back to the constitution. Does he envisage a scenario where the non-contentious elements of the document will de facto be implemented, given that a number of them could be under way? Could the EU Heads of Government say, "The following are non-contentious and let us implement them and get on with it"?

In reply to Deputy Ó Caoláin, the Taoiseach stated he does not have any views outside the report prepared by the Seanad itself regarding its reform. However, it is important that the diaspora should be represented in the Oireachtas. A number of detailed discussions on motions and Private Members' Bills took place on this issue in the 1980s but it did not prove practical to implement a measure in this regard. Jim Higgins, MEP, offered to hand over his Seanad seat to an agreed appointee of the diaspora movement from Britain or wherever. That offer is still on the table and in view of the——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That issue does not arise in this set of questions.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I refer to Seanad reform.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is still not the subject of the questions.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach support this offer? If the vacancy occurred and the diaspora was agreeable to nominating a person, would the Taoiseach accept this without contesting a Seanad by-election?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is every reason for the Forum on Europe to continue its work. I welcome the communicating Europe initiative by the European Commission under which more commissioners and other senior officials will make themselves available to governments. The Forum on Europe is the best way to support dialogue and discussion of the issues and the forum's reports tease them out. The forum was established because that was not happening. Admittedly, it was a Labour Party proposal, which I took up, but it was a good one. We should continue to develop the forum and I would love it see it receive more media attention because there have been some excellent debates, which have almost gone unnoticed. That is a pity because there has been high quality debate about national questions and issues such as how the role of the Defence Forces will evolve and change and battlegroups. These issues have been well debated at the forum and consensus must be built on them. Next year, three or four commissioners, as well as the President of Commission, will attend the forum. The President will attend again because he thought it was a useful exercise. Since he visited during the summer, he has advocated that his commissioners and representatives of other member states should attend the forum. That meeting received a great deal of coverage but we could generate coverage of many of the other meetings. Deputy Joe Higgins will be delighted to know that Commissioner McCreevy will attend the forum to see him.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I would be delighted to challenge him on his justification for the cheap labour regime.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That will be another good day in the forum. The sad thing about the constitutional document is that the chairman of the convention insisted on it remaining as it was. A number of us warned that publishing and explaining an enormous document with annexes was fraught with danger, in view of the relatively simple case of explaining the Nice referendum. The French insisted on the framework as the way to do it. One could take all the institutional sections which would maintain the balance of how the constitution was negotiated. One could not take some sections of the document and have these approved but one could leave out the annexes and make progress. This must be examined.

With the addition of Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria, some 28 countries could be EU member states. Other discussions are taking place, including discussions with a lobby group for the accession of the Ukraine, which is inevitable over the next few years. In addition, at least three or four countries in the Balkans will come on to the map over the next three or four years. On the current institutions and qualified majority voting we cannot continue without reform so it is advisable to examine this matter. This will form part of the debate next summer.

Regarding the Seanad, the difficulties in the 1980s still exist and it is a matter for the Seanad to discuss. I am not ruling out consideration of what the MEP from Deputy Kenny's party proposed. How would one define an electorate? I assume the Deputy is referring to the proposal where the Federation of Irish Societies would nominate someone. This could be pursued in discussion. I was involved in these discussions as Whip in the 1980s and it proved impossible to establish a basis of an electorate in the United States and the United Kingdom, without considering the wider Irish diaspora.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I refer to an appointee from an agreed grouping.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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From the Federation of Irish Societies.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I understand it could not be an elected candidate.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach stated he could not recall where the Seanad reform issue stands. Is the Government serious about Seanad reform or is the purpose of this entire exercise the inclusion of representatives from Northern Ireland on a cross-community basis? Does the Taoiseach intend these to be included in the 11 nominees of the Taoiseach or would it be otherwise? Does the Taoiseach accept the Government should have a view on Seanad reform? Some of us in this House hold the view that Seanad reform is badly needed. Is the present exercise making progress?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise if I was misunderstood. I stated I had no view other than the report. I attended the committee meeting, spending several hours there.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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So did I.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I gave my views and these are reflected in the report. I support the report and believe reform is necessary in the Upper House, as do my esteemed colleagues in the Upper House. We could get far more out of the Upper House through some of the reform measures in the report, which I support.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Arising from correspondence on parliamentary questions, it has been established RTE does not have a remit to broadcast in Britain. As the broadcasting Bill is a Government priority, I assume it can be raised in this series of questions. It is difficult to raise this matter on the Order of Business, as the Ceann Comhairle is aware.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is even more difficult to raise it on Taoiseach's questions as they should relate specifically to the Department of the Taoiseach.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I am wrong again.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach might take an initiative, legislatively speaking.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach might rise to the occasion.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Some days ago, I asked the Taoiseach on the Order of Business to extract the required section of legislation from the maw of the broadcasting Bill, which will take between a year and 18 months to pass through the Houses. I thought the Taoiseach was favourably disposed to this.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest the Deputy submit a question to the appropriate Minister.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I know the answer from the Minister but I need the Taoiseach to do something about the Minister. If this section could be removed, I have no doubt the Opposition would agree to an amendment or correction being passed by the House in a day. This would enable the Taoiseach to make progress on an issue for which he has indicated strong support, namely, broadcasting RTE programmes to England.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg does not ask me too many questions. At his behest, I raised this matter last year with the RTE authority and discussed the matter with it when I opened the new offices in Millbank, in the United Kingdom. The members of the authority raised two issues, the cost and the legislative element. I understand the legislative matters can be resolved in the broadcasting Bill. This leaves the cost issue and I understand the Minister and his officials would rather deal with this in the context of the entire broadcasting Bill.

I am aware of Deputy Stagg's interest in this matter and would share it from a different perspective. From a sporting point of view I think broadcasting to Britain would be a good thing. Deputy Stagg's proposal is good — perhaps he is looking at it from the perspective of cultural and other issues. A large audience of Irish people in the United Kingdom would be interested in Irish radio and particularly in sport during the summertime. It would be valued if people could get far better reception and if it can be done I will support this measure. I will speak to the Minister again on this issue if it does not cost an arm and a leg. Many people are listening to games and other cultural events, with which I am not familiar, on the Internet but this is not the easiest way of doing this.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding legislation to facilitate Seanad reform, has the Taoiseach considered Seanad elections directly from a list system? That is the critical question.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The question has already been answered.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No, it has not.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot address what might be in legislation.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not anticipated but I am asking if the Taoiseach has given due consideration to this matter.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The report already published is the basis of the discussion.