Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Question 104: To ask the Minister for Finance if he has carried out an assessment of the cost of decentralisation and obtained the requisite inputs from the individual Departments and agencies which have line responsibility to accurately assess the financial and service impact. [33304/05]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When the Government's decentralisation programme was first announced, it was stated that the overall objective would be to ensure that property acquired at regional level would be matched as closely as possible, both in time and in cost terms, by the disposal of property currently held in the Dublin region, whether held on lease or otherwise. In November 2004, the decentralisation implementation group prepared a report on the procurement methodology and financial assessment of the property aspects of the programme, including a financial model, based on a property finance study carried out by the Office of Public Works. While the prevailing property market conditions in each area will have a bearing on cost, this model indicates that the break-even position in property will be reached in about 20 years.

In terms of actual outlay to date, the total amount committed in principle by the OPW on site acquisition costs, excluding VAT, is approximately €35.7 million. Expenditure to date this year is €9.9 million.

As regards non-property costs, the decentralisation programme is being implemented on a voluntary basis. There will be no redundancies and, as on previous occasions, the payment of removal or relocation expenses will not arise.

A study was commissioned by the decentralisation implementation group which provides a model for identifying non-property costs and savings that arise both during the relocation phase and in the context of a post-decentralised Civil Service. Decentralising organisations have been asked to use this model to make periodic reports identifying non-property costs incurred and savings made both since the programme was announced and in its implementation in the future.

Good progress continues to be made on this ambitious programme and I look forward to seeing the fruits of this as the programme is rolled out over the next few years.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister's early mover costs are running in the region of €47 million for sites alone. Taking the projected number of early movers it will cost approximately €12,000 per person per site. Is that not a major expense to move people from Dublin to provincial locations? Projecting that further, on the basis of the costs provided by the Minister of State and the final cost, it will cost approximately €90,000 per person to relocate people from Dublin to a provincial setting. Is that not a significant cost?

The Minister referred to the disposal of property held in the city. To date no property has been disposed of in respect of decentralisation. Will the Minister explain why? How does he reconcile the expenditure of €47 million on purchasing sites when only one in six of the early movers is anxious to move to those locations? How can he proceed to purchase property and bring developers on site to start building offices that will cost approximately €90,000 per person when only one in six of those people has indicated he or she is prepared to move there?

The Minister has not responded to the nub of the question, namely, how much Departments have estimated it will cost them to decentralise. No table has been produced with that information, yet IMPACT has recently asked that the Minister produce those costings on a departmental basis. Why has he not done so?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know from where the Deputy plucked his costs. If I had the details of his assumptions, I could give him a detailed answer.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am quoting what the Minister of State told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is no point in the Deputy doing the usual stunt in respect of a question on decentralisation. The implementation group, which knows much more about this process than anyone in this House, provided a financial model which confirms that the payback in respect of relocation can be done on a property basis over 20 years. I presume the Deputy is trying to extrapolate. He can just throw out a figure which the media will cover and we will all have to take as gospel.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The figures came from the Minister's Department.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When all aspects are taken into account the implementation group's financial model indicates how it works out. In respect of the Deputy's one in six figure, 138 posts are due to relocate to my town, Tullamore, and 57 of those people have indicated they want to decentralise there from the relevant Department. That is not one in six. A further 33 have accepted offers of posts in Tullamore and arrangements are being made for them to transfer to the Department of Finance in the next few months.

I am aware from media reports of the Deputy's claim regarding IMPACT but not of the assumptions underpinning the claim that it would cost €65 million a year to retain specialist staff who do not wish to relocate under the decentralisation programme. Therefore I cannot comment on that or the Deputy's claim.

Duplication of staff in Dublin and the new locations is not planned. The Government has always recognised that in addition to the personnel who have applied to decentralise there is another group of equally dedicated civil and public servants who, for a range of personal or other reasons, are not in a position to relocate from Dublin. At the time of the announcement of the programme the Government made it clear that all those wishing to remain in Dublin would be offered alternative public service jobs. Arrangements will be put in place to allow staff whose jobs are being decentralised and who opt not to move out of Dublin to be assigned to other jobs in the city. That is being discussed with the trade unions concerned.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has failed to answer my question about the various Departments and he questions some of the figures I cited. I refer him to a question answered yesterday by the Minister of State, who is seated beside him, in which he said: "The cost of acquiring sites-properties for the early moving Departments is estimated to be in the region of €47 million, excluding VAT". I did not pluck the figure out of the air. It was given to my colleague yesterday and is either right or wrong. If it is right, what the Minister has said today is not correct. He cannot have it both ways. He either knows the figure or not.

The total number of early movers is estimated at 4,000. If the Minister does a quick sum, he will find that I am very accurate. If he takes the figure the Minister of State gave to the Committee on Finance and the Public Service, that the overall costs run up to approximately €900 million, he will see that I am not far wrong on that extrapolation.

The Minister mentioned some areas where there are people who want to move. There are 21 early movers, 12 of which have on average fewer than 15% of people who want to move. That is where I get my one in six figure, which is a reasonable assumption.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will extrapolate the figures back for the Deputy to avoid confusion. I have explained the amount committed in principle on site acquisition to date, namely €35.7 million. I do not say that does not correspond to the Deputy's figure in respect of how it will be spent. On the other side of the balance sheet, however, after all the Deputy's extrapolation, is the amount of money the State gets back for those offices vacated in Dublin.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is nil.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In his desire to give an accurate account of what it costs to move people the Deputy decided to divide a figure he knows by the number of early movers. It does not, however, cost that sum because we will dispose of the other buildings and money will come in for them. We hear a great deal from the financial spokesman in the Deputy's party about the need for models and giving credence to models. There is a model in place to which the Deputy does not refer as he puts these high figures into the public domain. The model confirms that within 20 years, this programme will pay for itself in terms of its property acquisition and release aspects. When one moves people from one Department to another, offices become vacant and have a value.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We can only guess at those. There is no word of where or what those buildings are.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is purposely not factoring them in because he wants to give a sensational figure to the media.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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If we do not know what they are, how can we factor them in? Does the Minister know what they are?