Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach and his Ministers are prone to answering questions about rip-off with a sense of denial, but I would like to raise a particular issue. My colleague, Deputy Stanton, has conducted extensive research on the cost of disability equipment here compared to in the United Kingdom. His survey shows that people with disabilities, the Health Service Executive and the taxpayer here pay on average more than 40% higher prices for disability equipment, and in one case more than 100%.

Deputy Stanton's survey looked at 19 basic items that serve disabled people in their daily lives, including mobility equipment, toiletry aids, safety grab rails etc. He found on average that prices here are 40% higher than in the United Kingdom. Five items were over 50% more expensive. For example, the memory foam cushion is €137.83 in UK prices, but €275 in Ireland, a differential of approximately 100%. The prop-up bed wedge used by disabled people is €20.94 in Britain, but €38.30 in Ireland, a differential of over 83%. The grab rail, which is an important aid for disabled people, is €11.54 in England and €17.50 here, over 52% of a price differential. Two very important items are the stair lift and the four-wheel scooter. The 16-step stair lift is €1,400 in the United Kingdom but there is a differential of €611.83 here. The four-wheel scooter is over €770 dearer here.

These differentials illustrate that the taxpayer, the HSE and, most importantly, disabled persons are ripped off by prices of items essential for their daily comfort and convenience. Should there not be a review of these prices by the Competition Authority? Will the Taoiseach instruct it to carry out such a review and investigation to ensure these mini cartels are broken up and that the taxpayer, the HSE and disabled persons get fair treatment across the board and are not ripped off in this manner?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have details on the prices, but if those differentials are as Deputy Kenny states, they are excessive. From the Government perspective, this is an issue for the Competition Authority and it should already be examining it. This may be an issue partly as a result of the significant resources we are now putting into the disability area.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Waste not, want not.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some €643 million has been invested into support services for people with disabilities in the past few years. It would be regrettable if investment in the health boards, now the HSE, and resources for additional places, equipment and voluntary agencies resulted in excessive prices because of the extra money and opportunity to sell equipment. Deputy Kenny makes the point that the Competition Authority should examine this area. If agencies or a limited number of people are purchasing, it should conduct an examination.

The Rehabilitation Institute, the Central Remedial Clinic and the other organisations purchase directly and in many cases have the opportunity to buy in multiples. One would imagine they would pass the equipment on to individuals as would the HSE in its various regions. It would be interesting to see how their prices compare with those mentioned by Deputy Kenny. I do not know, but the information should be easily found.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The issues raised by Deputy Stanton in his survey are not theoretical. These items were all priced in late August or early September of this year. The differentials call into question public procurement policy. Does this sort of rip-off apply throughout the public procurement system where other materials are required for various categories of people? Why is this not being investigated?

Some 18 months ago, the post-polio support group brought this issue to the attention of the Department of Health and Children. That Department was happy to announce it would investigate it, but nothing has happened.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Was that Deputy Martin again?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope Deputy McGrath supports the legislation.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny, without interruption.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Department went on to say the information provided by the post-polio support group would be very helpful in that regard. However, we have examples of 19 pieces of equipment, priced in late August and September of this year, where the average differential in price is over 40%, and up to 100% in some cases. When we talk to people who must sit in wheelchairs and conduct their lives as best they can, we find they are being ripped off. However, the HSE, the Department of Health and Children and the Government are not investigating why this happens.

Will the Taoiseach tell us that he will ask the Competition Authority to investigate this rip-off system? If we apply the difference in prices spent on mobility equipment here, it means that over the past number of years over €40 million has been paid out, €16 million of which could have been used for extra benefits and facilities. It is clear that a rip-off is occurring in this area. The Taoiseach is being advised by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, who has said the idea that rip-offs are taking place in the tourism sector is a myth.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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He thinks it is a fairy tale.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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He is the wrong man to ask.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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He is mumbling to himself.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I remind the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, that we do not live in the land of theory.

James Breen (Clare, Independent)
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The Minister's comment was a Kerry joke.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have outlined the facts which were uncovered during a survey conducted in late August and early September. I would like the Taoiseach to instruct the Competition Authority to carry out an investigation——

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——so the mini cartels and the rip-off being imposed on a vulnerable section of society can be dealt with once and for all.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The relatively new Act that established the Competition Authority gives the authority significant powers to examine any possible cartel in any sector of the economy. I do not know whether the authority is examining the matter raised by the Deputy. I am aware, however, that every cent the State spends on disability services needs to be categorised by the relevant Department. That is being done, as Members are aware. I will raise the issues mentioned by Deputy Kenny. If such abuse is taking place in a vulnerable sector of society, I agree it should be investigated. Perhaps it is already being looked at. I will outline my concerns in this regard. The Government has invested €2.8 billion in disability-specific services in recent years.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There is no accountability for the spending of that money.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It was wasted.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope it was not wasted.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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That is the problem.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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They will not send in their accounts.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has spent an additional €2.1 billion on services for people with intellectual, physical and sensory disabilities, autism and mental illnesses.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Did the Taoiseach see "Prime Time" last night?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Over €500 million has been spent on the education of children with special needs. Grant aid of €56 million has been allocated to meet the cost of developing accommodation facilities for people with disabilities. Some €63 million has been invested in services for such people through FÁS programmes.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Why are they——

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It used to be the case that hardly any money was spent on people with disabilities. Now that we have invested our resources in this vulnerable sector of Irish life, we are getting value for money. If some people in the sector are involved in abuses, the matter should be examined. I repeat the point I made earlier — the vast majority of people with disabilities are covered by medical cards. A great deal of the equipment they need is purchased through the Health Service Executive in the regions and also through a host of other excellent organisations like Rehab and the Central Remedial Clinic.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach not mind that taxpayers' money is being wasted?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is the cost irrelevant?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Such organisations have the capacity to buy in bulk.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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They are not doing it.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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They would like value for money too.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I assume they are getting value for money because they can purchase——

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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They are not doing it.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——large amounts of wheelchairs and other instruments to help people with disabilities.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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They are not doing that.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Has the Taoiseach surveyed the results of a child care survey which are published in today's Irish Examiner? The approach advocated by the Labour Party in a comprehensive child care policy document it has published is strikingly borne out in the results of the survey. I am aware that a couple of people are permanently employed by Fianna Fáil to publish statements about the Labour Party every day.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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To which Labour Party does the Deputy refer?

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I notice that no statement has been produced in this regard.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Does he refer to the Democratic Left wing of the Labour Party?

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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No such statement has been published in respect of the Labour Party's criticism of the Government's child care policy.

Michael Ahern (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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To which Labour Party does Deputy Rabbitte refer?

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Does that mean the Taoiseach and the Government are contemplating the acceptance of the Labour Party's child care policy? The Taoiseach is aware that just one person in ten believes child care is affordable. Some 84% of those who responded to the survey in the Irish Examiner believe the Government has failed to address the issue of child care. The average cost of keeping a child in crèche care is €724 which, depending on one's tax circumstances, is equivalent at a minimum to €1,065 per month, or €13,000 per annum. Many people are spending more on child care than on their mortgages. This is a fundamental aspect of the debate about the nature of family life and society. Nine out of ten people believe the Government has failed to deal adequately with child care issues. Does the Taoiseach intend to take action of the nature proposed in the Labour Party document? Does he intend to respond to the suggestion that parental leave be increased? Does he intend to make provision for preschool education? Bearing in mind that many couples are working in one and a half jobs, does the Taoiseach intend to underline by legislative measures the right to flexible part-time working? Child care is one of the biggest issues faced by society and many of the electorate. Given the amount of taxes people are paying and the extent of the Government's budget surplus, the electorate wants to know the nature of the Government's response.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte is right to state that child care is a big issue. It is a big issue because 2 million people are working in our strong economy, which has grown over recent years. The number of women in the workforce has increased from 400,000 a decade ago to 800,000. It is estimated that approximately 220,000 people need child care facilities. The Government increased child benefit payments from €38 to €141 at the last budget. The overall child care budget increased from €500 million to €2 billion. Some €499 million has been invested under the equal opportunities child care programme to provide over 30,000 child care places. I accept child care is still a big issue that needs to be dealt with, however. The Government has examined all the child care reports. Deputy Rabbitte will not mind me saying that the Labour Party's child care document is very similar to the National Economic and Social Council's document on the same issue — it is almost word perfect.

Michael Ahern (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a photocopy.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is plagiarism.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Labour Party is cogging the exams again.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The NESC copied us.

Jim Glennon (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
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That would be a waste of money.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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A number of child care surveys and examinations have been published. The Government has asked an interdepartmental group to examine the matter.

Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy Martin, was involved in that too.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The group raised many issues and finalised seven basic proposals, all of which are in the public domain. I agree with Deputy Rabbitte that child care is a major and significant issue. I do not believe that every single proposal that has been made by every group can be accepted at once. I have noted that many of the organisations have said we need to build on the successes which have been achieved over recent years. Most people acknowledge achievements such as the considerable increase from €38 to €141. I accept that some people are paying as much, if not more, on child care as on their mortgages. I do not deny that it is a huge drain on such people's resources. The Government is considering what it can do about this problem, which cannot be totally resolved in one go. The Government trebled child care payments in a single budget by implementing a huge increase of €32.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That was child benefit.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government decided to increase child benefit because agreement could not be reached the last time the matter was examined comprehensively by the various groups. The Government was faced with a decision when there was total disagreement among the main organisations. It decided that changes in the child benefit system represented the best way of making progress. Having listened carefully to the organisations in question on this occasion, the Government is trying to make some further improvements. That some 220,000 people have child care needs is a major issue. I acknowledge that the Government has to try to make progress. The Government has succeeded in providing 30,000 child care places in not-for-profit community crèches under the equal opportunities child care programme. It has completed what it set out to do, which was to treble child benefit, so now it needs to try to do something else.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach has agreed that child care is a big issue. I accept his comment that it is impossible to put in place a perfect child care system overnight, given the absence of a decent system up to now. Having listened to the Taoiseach's response, however, it is unclear what the Government proposes to do. He said, for example, there are 2 million people in the workforce. Is the Taoiseach implying he will forget about the women — they tend to be women in the main — who are forced out of work because of the cost of child care or who make the choice to leave the workplace to look after their children for a period? Does he plan any legislative measures to address the question of flexible working and the right of the spouse, whichever one it is, to go back into the workforce? The Taoiseach does not appear to have thought about that and he appears to be confusing child care with child benefit.

Talking about confusion and NESC, I thought it was at Cavan that we had NESC, not at Clonmel. The Taoiseach can include NESC as part of the hegemony he has established over various quangos. I do not know what he learned in Cavan but from what I can see it was not very much. What is the Taoiseach's position on improving parental leave and pre-school education and does he plan to give any kind of legislative underpinning to the right of people to take up part-time work or to leave work for a period? On the question of stay-at-home spouses, does he intend to grant equal treatment for them in whatever measures are introduced for people at work?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I made the point that the reason there is such a demand for child care is because there are 2 million people working.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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They have to work to pay the mortgage.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In this case I am talking about people in the workforce. Some 800,000 people are now working. The reason the Government decided to go the child benefit route the last time was that there was no agreement by the representative organisations as to how this could be done both for people who were in the workforce and for those working in the home. For that reason the Government decided the fairest way was to move from child benefit of €38 to the current rate of €141 which was an enormous increase. I will not go into the history of how small increases were in the past but we gave an enormous increase in child benefit from €500 million to €2 billion.

Child benefit is child care. It is money to help people whether they are working in the home or outside of it. I do not think one can discriminate between people working at home and those in the workplaces. It would be putting one against the other and that would be the wrong thing to do. We have already improved parental leave. A number of initiatives are in place in my Department to support the needs of a diverse workforce, including work sharing options, flexi-time, career breaks, paternity leave, term leave, special leave for domestic circumstances, adoptive leave and carer's leave. All of these are in operation in my Department. I support them all and their extension. I agree with whatever helps a person to pursue his or her career in a proper way.

Under the equal opportunities child care scheme we have gone from a position of zero to a network of community non-profit crèches. These have got both capital and costs of up to €499 million to provide 26,000 child care places — at maximum capacity there will be 38,000 or 39,000 places. All of these things are necessary. Officials across Departments have looked at all the best models, which are considered to be in Finland and Sweden. Finland appears to come out No. 1 in Europe. We have looked at the models to see what we could achieve over a number of years now that we have improved child benefit. I would like if we could move to deal with some of these issues. Seven issues have been identified and the interdepartmental group has suggested that we should pursue one or two of them. We are looking at those to see what we can do to at least get the process started.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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There has been widespread media coverage as a result of Deputy Catherine Murphy and I raising with the Taoiseach and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the recent phenomenon of management companies in new housing estates and the fees demanded by them. Many media commentators have said they were not aware of this new form of rip-off. The words, "scam", "rip-off" and "stealth tax" were correctly and frequently used in recent days with regard to this issue.

The Minister is seeking information but I want two or three very clear statements from the Taoiseach this morning in regard to the policy aspect of the matter. Does he oppose the sneaky underhand privatisation by local authorities through the management company structure of services such as care of public open spaces, public liability insurance, maintenance of the water pipe network and other services, not inside apartment blocks but in housing estates, and the effective imposition of a new local tax on new young home buyers to finance this? In the Taoiseach's estate and in mine and probably in the estates of most Members, those services are provided from our general taxation through the local authorities.

Does the Taoiseach oppose the scam whereby house builders, having made obscene profits already, control the management companies for the first four and five years and drag the very people who made profits for them into the courts to force fees out of them to finance basic maintenance which they were obliged to do by law up until now and are still obliged to do? It is dishonest in the extreme to say people have a choice, as some local authority managers have attempted to say in justification. They do not have a choice any more than a starving person in a queue for food has a choice as to the conditions that will be imposed on him or her. Sharp practice is in operation when, for example, an 18-page contract is being shoved under people's noses when they come to sign for their houses to force them into a management company.

Yesterday. we had the reassuring image of the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, posing like Robert De Niro looming over the mean streets of Dublin assuring us he would help us to plan for Christmas. Admittedly, that was offset by the terrifying image of the Minister for Defence this morning at the controls of an Army helicopter.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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A nuclear weapon.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Hands on.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Higgins should make sure the guns are not targeted at him.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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If he directed the guns in the right places it might be okay. Tens of thousands of young home owners——

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is your second job. I thought you would resign after what they did to Liam Lawlor.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Higgins should be allowed to conclude.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy did not write about asking for the resignation of the editor of the Sunday——

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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You are losing ground.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Higgins should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Tens of thousands of new young home buyers saddled with large mortgages, child care costs and so on are now facing this new burden. They want the Government to move immediately to remove this monkey off their backs.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Higgins is aware the Government is dealing with this issue. I accept the points that were raised by him and Deputy Catherine Murphy yesterday. The answer to the Deputy's three questions is "Yes". Sorry, he only asked two questions so I cannot answer the third.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The comrades are in agreement.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Now there will be endless speculation as to what was the third question. Perhaps the Taoiseach should answer it anyway.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He cannot remember.

Paudge Connolly (Cavan-Monaghan, Independent)
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The third man.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Like the third socialist.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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What the Taoiseach said is very interesting. The follow up must be that legislation would be introduced immediately to allow the voiding of the contracts into which people have been forced already so that the management companies can be dissolved and those services can then be provided by the local authorities. The Taoiseach has a personal listening post in the form of a media watch group paid for by the taxpayer. The day before yesterday, the "Liveline" programme was chock-a-block with revelations from all over the country about the extent of this new scam. Apparently, it could have gone on for another few hours such is the extent of it. I and Independent Deputies have made, and will continue to make, this a major issue. If it is not resolved quickly, it will be a major election issue in key areas. I will talk to other parties as well. I have constituents who will be in court in the next few weeks. They have been scandalously dragged there by the developers to pay these fees. I am glad the Taoiseach agrees with the point but what can he say concretely about stopping the practice instantly, dissolving the companies which exist and about the provision of those services from the general taxation which applies to most of us already?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Joe Higgins knows, legislation in any area cannot be applied retrospectively and it would be wrong to give any comfort to people knowing that to be the case. In many areas, management companies which were originally set up to take care of and maintain complexes and to look after environmental issues, such as landscaping, cleaning, painting and so on, have extended their services to include those which in any other estate, whether in a public, private, corporation or council area, would normally be free. They have designed contracts to place total liability on tenants who, particularly some years ago when there was a supply and demand issue, signed these contracts. Tenants now find the costs are excessive and that they are arbitrarily increased annually. This places a huge burden on people. It is a fairly new phenomenon and it did not happen in the past. The Minister has stated he is examining the issue but it cannot be dealt with retrospectively.