Dáil debates
Wednesday, 19 October 2005
Priority Questions.
Public Transport.
1:00 pm
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Question 81: To ask the Minister for Transport when he will publish the ten-year transport investment plan for the country; and if contractual commitments on the major public transport projects within the plan are expected to be agreed within the lifetime of this Dáil. [29724/05]
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Question 82: To ask the Minister for Transport if he has considered the impact of projected population changes within the greater Dublin area and its implication for his Department's ten-year transport plan; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29710/05]
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 81 and 82 together.
I hope to submit proposals to Government shortly regarding the ten-year transport investment framework. I will publish details of the framework once it has been approved by the Government. Responsibility for entering into contractual commitments for the major public transport projects under the framework will be a matter for the implementing agencies and not directly for my Department. However, the framework will set out the annual global financial profiles and indicative timeframes for the implementation of major projects and the agencies will be expected to work within these parameters. The implementation of the projects will be spread over the ten-year lifetime of the framework, having regard to the state of preparedness of individual projects, their relative priority and the annual financial profiles.
The forecast increase in population in the greater Dublin area was considered. In developing the framework, my Department asked the Dublin Transportation Office to carry out transportation modelling on the impacts of a number of different scenarios to help assess the optimal mix of investments.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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It is clear from the Minister's response that no major public transport projects will be contractually signed in the lifetime of this Dáil. In the exchange with Deputy Shortall it was interesting to hear he has nothing to do with traffic management in the capital and now he is saying he has nothing to do with the contractual arrangements that these are up to the agency.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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And nothing to do with the subject.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that either, and the Deputy should not misquote me. I answered a specific question on who is in charge and gave an answer.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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He is like Manuel, he knows nothing.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The Minister stated that it would be up to the implementing agencies whether any contracts would be signed. This is the exact replica of what happened four years ago, where Fianna Fáil stated before an election that it would build a metro and six months later when the election was over, it was goodbye to the Metro. Anything he will say about public transport will have the same credibility. It is a Fianna Fáil promise before an election. If the contracts are not signed before the election, sorry, it counts for nothing.
Are the media reports true with regard to the front-loading in the roads programme, that the Department of Finance after its clever analysis of the transport scene in the past six years when they let through a €6 billion roads programme which cost €16 billion, is fighting the good valiant fight and insisting that we spend more on roads and then eventually, after 2014 or some such date, we will start building public transport? Is that general trend emerging from the Minister's detailed analysis which was meant to be completed last March?
On the funding envelope that the Minister called the global financial portfolio, if we are adopting a funding mechanism for the proposed metro which would involve, not the State funding it — Lord forbid we put a penny into public transport — but rather private finance over 20 or 30 years of the lifetime of the project the Government has proposed, how does that funding fit into the overall funding about which the Minister talks?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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All the Deputy's assertions, as usual, are wrong. Some day I might figure out what the Greens want. They do not want roads.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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They do not want private money in public transport. They do not want investment in this or that. It is an extraordinary policy.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Public money into public transport. That is the answer.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I will look in glee to the distant future when Fine Gael and Labour might sit down and come up with some cohesive policies that they might operate together.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Public money from the public purse.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The reality is that no such decision——
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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After eight years in Government we might have one.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——will emerge on the investment over the next ten years that will prioritise roads over investment in public transport. That is not the way the plan will be implemented and I am happy to say so in the House this afternoon. I do not know from where the Deputy got that.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There is a huge commitment in investment in public transport in the plan. His assertion that nothing is happening is nonsense. Only last week I signed the railway order for the upgrade of the electrification of the Kildare and Maynooth lines into Dublin.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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It will not go to construction for another three years.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Only last week we completed €175 million investment in the DART, the largest investment ever. Every station is now upgraded to take eight carriages. Passenger numbers per day on the DART are increased by thousands.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Does he believe this rosy picture? Does he think the people believe this nonsense?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Does anybody want me to answer a question here this afternoon? It seems the Deputy has come in, like everybody else——
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——to just rant and rave. Investment is taking place as we speak. There has been significant investment, from a paltry sum of barely millions up to 1997——
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Four to one in favour of roads.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——to billions. More than the Deputy would ever imagine has been invested in public transport.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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We all agree that a longer-term horizon is welcome but the idea of such a horizon is that it gives certainty as to what projects will go ahead. That has not happened. There has been every effort to obfuscate about what is planned to hide the fact that nothing is happening. There have been five year plans. There have been national plans. There have been national envelopes of plans. There are plans which are about to be announced. They will take ten years. We do not know whether it is a nine year plan or an 11 year plan. In other words, projects are being dropped, hidden, delayed, put back in and taken out to the extent that nobody knows exactly what is happening. Would the Minister agree now that we know for certain from all the projections, that the population is increasing even faster than we expected, that there is a real need to start delivering on projects and that the rate of the population increase is far greater than the rate of delivery of public transport projects? There has been a large increase in investment in the DART. There has been an increase in investment in recent years in commuter rail. Despite the fact that Luas has taken 20 million trips off the roads in the year, we still see no net improvement because the population is growing at a much faster rate than that at which the Minister is delivering projects. Similarly, the last section of the motorway has been completed——
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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——and yet every day we hear that there are tailbacks on the new section of the motorway, which it is not planned to widen. The reality is we are losing competitiveness every day as a result of congestion in this city and every other city and the public is losing patience with the Minister. As a result of these compelling figures about population, has the plan been expanded, adjusted or accelerated to cater for these increases?
Is there anybody in the Government who thinks there will ever be a better time for investment in public transport? Will we be richer than at present? Will there be a greater need than at present? In other words, for what on earth is he waiting to get up and going with the public transport projects?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with a number of points the Deputy made. We need to make a huge investment in public transport generally, but specifically in Dublin. I have not changed my view. When I came to conclusions having listened to everybody about what should be in the plan, I would not accept any attempt to alter the plan because it must be a fully integrated plan that will take Dublin into the future.
Deputy Mitchell is correct. This country is income rich but, as I stated recently, we are not public wealth rich. It is time we created the public wealth, like the investment in public transport and other facilities, throughout this country. I am happy that the discussions I have had with the Minister for Finance have gone exceptionally well. However, never again will I put myself in a position of guessing numbers on projects and finding myself back in this House hearing Deputies state that I said it was X and now it is X plus Z. For that reason, the due diligence that has been done on every single project with every single agency, the analysis, the cost benefit analysis, the real costs, the inflation costs and the projected costs all have been put into this programme. They have been scrutinised inside out. We now have almost completed that process and I will be ready to go to the Government shortly with the full investment portfolio. Never before in the history of the State has the roll-out of a project such as the ten year investment for the entire project come, side by side with considerable financial muscle that will stand up to anybody's scrutiny.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I am glad to hear the Minister has done such a detailed costing. Regardless of whether they are included, could he give me the figure for the cost of the eastern by-pass proposed by IBEC or the interconnector rail tunnel proposed by Iarnród Éireann?
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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This all would be far more credible if we had not heard it week in, week out for the past 12 months. Would the Minister accept, at least, that it is totally false economy to keep postponing projects, that not alone is the cost of each project increasing but the scale of the response is increasing with every passing month?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to Deputy Ryan, "no" is the answer. I will not get——
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is the scale of the response that is needed.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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First, as the Deputy knows, I have instructed the NRA and everybody else to do the complete feasibility study on the eastern by-pass and, therefore, I do not have a costing.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The Minister just said he had costed all the projects.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, the Deputy should wait until he sees the plan.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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He just stated he costed everything.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Who said that was in it?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I did not. The Deputy did, I did not.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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No, I do not want it in.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Give me the answer. Put the facts again on the record, if you want to hear them.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I agree, Deputy but if it takes an extra few months to get this right, I have been willing to do it. Every day I hear in this House Labour, Fine Gael and the Greens pretending that with a click of their fingers they will change health services and infrastructure, as if they have some magical solutions. Not one policy has emerged from the Greens, the Labour Party or Fine Gael——
Pat BreenOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Since 1998 we have listened week in, week out to the Minister telling us the Government would give us a metro system in Dublin. Where is it?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——on any area, but they come into this House day in, day out pretending that they have solutions. It is a load of baloney and it is time they were asked by us and the media to stand up what they are saying or shut up.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I would ask to see the Transport files if I was in the position.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Question 83: To ask the Minister for Transport the reason for his failure to fund additional buses for Dublin Bus as promised under the national development plan; and his proposals for addressing the significant unmet demand for extra bus capacity in many parts of Dublin. [29727/05]
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Significant Exchequer funds have been allocated to Dublin Bus under the National Development Plan — NDP. Some €349 million in operating subvention has been paid to the company over the period from 1999 to 2005, rising from €16.8 million in 1999 to €64.9 million in the current year. Under the NDP, Dublin Bus has purchased 497 new buses of which 93 are additional and 404 are replacement buses. Some 248 of these buses have been purchased with Exchequer assistance, 179 of which have had their cost met in full by the Exchequer. A further 20 buses will be purchased later this year with Exchequer assistance. In excess of €100 million in Exchequer capital funding has been provided to Dublin Bus since 2000. Included in this is €22 million in Exchequer funds allocated for the construction of a new bus depot at Harristown.
Significant changes have taken place in Dublin since the start of the national development plan. These changes include substantial increases in rail capacity, such as Luas, commuter rail services and the DART upgrades, together with ongoing demographic changes. As a result of a reconfigured fleet, passenger carrying capacity has increased by 255 at peak times. It is in this context that Dublin Bus is carrying out a review of the bus network in Dublin. The company has advised me that the review will be completed early next year. The company is, in the first instance, assessing how to maximise the utilisation of its existing bus fleet.
I anticipate that the company will respond to the challenge of meeting customer expectations in Dublin with new and innovative solutions. I intend to carry out full public consultation on the company's proposals. Given the level of investment in the bus market in Dublin, I want a wide range of views on any proposals for further investment in the bus market to ensure that it continues to represent best value for money for the taxpayer.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister puts much store in the famous ten-year transport plan for which we have been waiting for the past ten months or so, but I am sure he will forgive us for being utterly sceptical about plans. The public shares our scepticism. The experience with the most recent plan, the national development plan, was that it gave absolute guarantees on funding allocations. That plan provided for an additional 275 buses for Dublin Bus — an absolute guarantee of funding set in stone as part of the national development plan. However, not one additional bus has been provided to Dublin Bus since 2001. Meanwhile, the demand for public transport is exploding in the city and thousands of people are turned away from buses daily during the morning and evening peak hours.
Why should we believe anything the Minister says in respect of this famous transport plan when he has not honoured the commitments he gave under the national development plan? Some 275 buses were promised but only 93 were delivered, and that was before 2001. Where are the other 182 buses? When will the Minister deliver them as promised? When will he make some impact on meeting the huge unmet demand for bus services in the Dublin area?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know whether people understand this but, at pain of repeating myself, what seems to be the basis of Deputy Shortall's view and that of others is that Dublin Bus should have got new smaller buses. What Dublin Bus did was to buy buses with a completely different configuration which allowed it to increase capacity carrying in Dublin by over 25%. The replacement buses for which we provided funds are substantially different from many of the buses previously operating in Dublin.
Dublin Bus, because of the advent of Luas and other facilities, is doing an assessment in Dublin of how to maximise the existing routes. It is Dublin Bus that is doing the full evaluation, not me.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is a time-wasting project.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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As Minister responsible, I am charged with maximising the use of taxpayers' money. I have asked Dublin Bus to do this evaluation, but I cannot go to Busáras and write it for Dublin Bus. As soon as the company has completed its assessment, we agree terms and it comes to me, I will give Dublin Bus the new buses.
Unless policy has changed — Labour Party and Fine Gael Party policy seems to be different every morning when the party leaders come into the House — value for money must be part of the equation. Dublin Bus must maximise the use of buses
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The buses were promised in 2000.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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How many buses would the Minister get for €52 million?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It must maximise the use of buses on peak routes and must be flexible in changing routes because of increased capacity on the DART and the impact of the Luas.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Dublin Bus is certainly flexible. It juggles buses every day.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There has not been an assessment of the route network in Dublin for decades. It may be the Deputy's view that we should stay with what we have ——
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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—— when public transport investment has changed fundamentally in Dublin, but I have asked the company for its assessment to be completed and given to me. Based on that, we will meet the requirements. What the Deputy wants me to do, in advance of any proper assessment, is simply to give Dublin Bus the buses, without any guarantee of value for money for the taxpayer.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Not us; the Minister promised the buses in 2000.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Fine Gael and Labour Deputies are speaking in total contradiction of what their party leaders say in the House week after week. When it suits them to sing a different song, they do so.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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This is pure spoof. These are the tricks the Minister employs. He muddies the waters, spreads confusion and does not answer the question he has been asked. The Minister promised 275 buses under the national development plan, but he has refused to honour that commitment. He only provided 93 buses and, therefore, owes Dublin Bus and the commuters of Dublin 182 buses.
Given that the majority of people in the Dublin area are dependent on buses for public transport, notwithstanding the popularity of the Luas and DART, will the Minister explain the reason he refuses to provide the additional buses needed and which he promised to provide? Is it not time we had somebody in the Department of Transport who is prepared to champion the notion of public transport and show some commitment to the people who are turned away from buses on a regular basis because the fleet is inadequate and insufficient to meet the demand? Is it not nonsense to talk about getting people out of their cars when we do not have the required capacity in the bus service?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I assure the Deputy that nobody has championed public transport more than I have. The proof of this will be seen in a few weeks. It is frustrating for me. I would love to have the plan out today or last week.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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That is just another promise.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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No it is not. I will produce the plan. The Deputy will see it and can make her judgment on it.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why does the Minister not do what he has already promised? Why will he not provide the buses?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I have not refused to give Dublin Bus the buses.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Allow the Minister to make his reply.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Several replies to parliamentary questions indicate that.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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What I have said is that the least we can ask Dublin Bus, or any other company or agency that is in receipt of hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money, is to account for how it can maximise and get best value for that money.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Dublin Bus accepts that, so it is doing a full review of the existing network in Dublin, something which has not been done by anybody for decades.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Meanwhile, people continue to wait at bus stops.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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In recent years the DART has been developed and its capacity doubled. We have also had the impact of the Luas. The Deputy is surely not arguing that the existing bus routes should not be touched when the DART and Luas are working. It seems bizarre the Deputy should suggest that. Dublin Bus accepts it has a responsibility to work out the network and has informed me it is in the best position to do that review. I was going to look for somebody else to do it, but Dublin Bus felt it should do it because it knows the network. I agreed and asked it to bring the answer to me.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We move on to other questions. These questions and supplementary questions and replies are subject to a maximum duration of one minute.