Dáil debates
Wednesday, 19 October 2005
Leaders' Questions.
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yesterday in this House, Opposition Deputies exercised their rights to ask questions about the death of a man in Monaghan General Hospital last Friday. In doing so, Deputies reflected the outrage of people all over the country at the fact that a man could die in hospital from a condition which was treatable by the medical staff around him. Far from receiving satisfactory answers, we got a drip-feed of incomplete information. It is incredible that four days after this tragic death, the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach did not know that beds were available in Drogheda hospital. It is perfectly obvious that the health services and the competence of the health authorities in the north east are now in a complete mess. The Government has been warned repeatedly about this, but no action was taken politically to accept responsibility and see that competence was delivered. Deputy Crawford produced a letter in this House on 4 October which was sent out to GPs in the Cavan area. It stated that no patient should be sent into the hospital for emergency treatment because of trolleys and an inability to deal with them. It is incomprehensible that a man could have been allowed to die when personnel and medical staff were available with the necessary skills to carry out a vital life saving operation on him.
Does the Taoiseach accept that the protocols laid down for Drogheda, Monaghan and Cavan hospitals impose limitations on what can be done and the procedures that can be carried out? Does he accept that these protocols cause great confusion about what actually can be done? Does he accept that what is needed here is political direction to bring clarity to the situation? Yesterday, I raised the fact that under section 10 of the 2004 Act, the Minister for Health and Children is entitled to give a directive to the Health Service Executive in circumstances like this to the effect that no administrative procedure should prevent skilled surgeons and competent medical people from carrying out a life-saving operation. Will the Taoiseach see to it that such a directive is given under the law by the Minister for Health and Children to bring clarity and certainty to a situation like this? Skilled people in Monaghan General Hospital had to stand around and watch a patient die because of an administrative blockage. That is a scandal, which rests politically with the Taoiseach and the Government. Under the Act, he is entitled to bring clarity to the situation and I ask him to confirm that this morning.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We had a long debate about this yesterday, but I wish to express again our sincere sympathy to the family of Patrick Walsh, who died tragically in Monaghan last week. Deputy Kenny is right in that all the facts are not known. That is precisely why the Tánaiste announced yesterday — I reiterated it later — that Mr. Patrick Declan Carey, consultant surgeon at Belfast City Hospital and an honorary senior lecturer at Queen's University Belfast will carry out an independent and external review of the circumstance surrounding Mr. Walsh's death. That review will be completed, a report will be issued and will be made public. I look forward to the review finding an answer to the question as to the beds available in the region and what the circumstances were in Monaghan General Hospital. Deputy Kenny has come to his conclusion about the circumstances, but I would rather wait to see what happens.
There was an examination of this matter last year. A report was prepared by a steering group established by the former health board in the area. That steering group was representative of all the key stakeholders, including consultant representation in surgery, medicine and radiology from the hospitals. The recommendations of that steering group were unanimously approved by the members of the group. It recommended that major and emergency surgery should be carried out in Cavan General Hospital and that Monaghan General Hospital should provide selective, elective surgery. The recommendations refer to advice from the Royal College of Surgeons.
There are protocols in place, but no protocols prevent doctors doing what is right for patients. They never did and never will.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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They did earlier last year.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Who was in the hospital at the time, who was watching and monitoring will all come out in the report. I will not comment on that. Professor Drumm has already stated that the issues around the hospital have been the subject of some considerable debate and that the HSE is working to solve them.
My view is that to give political directives on these issues is wrong. It is not for us to direct. If there are issues of resources or policy required, the Tánaiste and the Department will do whatever they can in that regard. She and her officials are dealing with all these issues. If I came in here every morning announcing or defending political directives for individual hospitals, or interfering with protocols governing the running of hospitals, that would be entirely wrong.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is very sad when anyone dies, but it is wrong to intervene politically. It is right that we provide resources and staff, and we have a policy unit in the Department that works with the HSE. However, although Deputy Kenny might believe that the solution to every problem is to give political directions, I will not go down that road.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny should be allowed to reply without interruption.
Paudge Connolly (Cavan-Monaghan, Independent)
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Consultants have stated the system is not working.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny without interruption. It is leaders' questions.
Paudge Connolly (Cavan-Monaghan, Independent)
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The system is not working.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Connolly to resume his seat. There are other ways in which Deputy Connolly can raise this issue. He spoke on the Adjournment last night. Deputy Kenny without interruption.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If the Taoiseach is not prepared to give political direction, that is a clear indication he is on his way out of office. The Taoiseach should note that I did not arrive at any conclusion about Monaghan hospital. I did not ask him to issue an individual direction in respect of any hospital. We are talking about the competence of the health service and the health authority and about 200,000 patients in that region.
Persons of skill and medical experience were unable to operate on Mr. Walsh, who bled to death in Monaghan hospital. They could not operate because of an administrative blockage which can be cleared for this hospital and for every hospital under section 10 of the Health Act. The Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children is entitled to so do if she wishes.
As this matter is so confused, perhaps the Taoiseach will explain why a surgeon in Monaghan this year, the same person who could have carried out the operation on Mr. Pat Joe Walsh, was criticised by hospital management and the Health Service Executive for carrying out such an operation. If the Tánaiste wishes to give the Taoiseach a briefing, I will wait until she is finished.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Ollie Wilkinson (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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She will give Deputy Kenny directions.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has not yet concluded because the Tánaiste is giving directions to the Taoiseach. Does the Taoiseach agree, as he did last year, that there should be independence and objectivity when assessing cases like this? If a train crashes or if a building collapses, a special investigative team is used. The Health and Safety Authority has such competence. There is no patient authority service and no health ombudsman who can act with complete objectivity and independence. While I do not decry Mr. Carey's qualifications, this should apply as a matter of competence and as a matter of course.
Will the Taoiseach see to it that a general directive is given under the Act so that this situation does not recur in any hospital for any patient, in other words, if someone is dying who can be saved, everything that needs to be done in a hospital to save that person will be done whatever the circumstances? Second, will the Taoiseach remove the confusion that exists because of protocols and other matters and put in place a health ombudsman and a patient service authority that will see to it that these situations can be investigated quickly, professionally, independently and objectively——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time is long over.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——so that competence can be achieved in the delivery of the health service? The Government lays down policy while Professor Drumm and the Health Service Executive are merely those who must deliver it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As for the two points raised, while I do not take issue with Deputy Kenny, we should wait to find out what happened——
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Wait until it happens again.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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This is not the first time this has happened.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——in Monaghan that night. The Deputy has made an assumption and I do not blame him for so doing. He has assumed as he stated in his earlier contribution, that the consultants were present watching the man die. We should wait to find out what were the circumstances. We should wait to find out if protocols or a policy direction from either the HSE or the Department had an effect in this instance. We should wait. While I have learned of some of the circumstances, I am not prepared to state what I have heard until I see a report by an eminent person. I do not believe there will be any argument about that. I noted Deputy Kenny's comments about Dr. Carey.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What will happen then?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The second point has some validity and I have answered on this issue previously. As far as the hospitals of Monaghan, Cavan, Drogheda and Dundalk are concerned, for many years we have heard different people on the health boards as well as Members from all sides of this House talk about the issues, debates and occasionally arguments pertaining to that region. People have argued for their own hospital and area and about how the issue should best be handled. As far as policy is concerned and as to how Professor Drumm, his colleagues, the Tánaiste and I want to get services right in that region, I am sure the Deputy has heard what Professor Drumm and others have said about this issue in the past. We have also heard what the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland has to say.
Some people have asked why the Royal College of Surgeons should have a role in dictating such issues. From a policy base, someone must make professional assessments as to what is the best way to give treatment to patients in an area, to have the units properly staffed with surgical and medical consultants, with backup ICU beds——
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not the criterion used.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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What does the Taoiseach think?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——given the population base and what specialties can deal with. These arguments have been fairly well thrashed out. As late as last year, a steering group unanimously approved the present basis.
Finally, there are no protocols or directions from the HSE, the Tánaiste, myself or the Department to prevent a doctor acting in the best interest of a patient——
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The consultant was challenged the last time.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——in a certain set of circumstances. If the doctors were present and were challenged, I am confident they will explain that and the full facts will become available. I wish to end as I began, by stating that the tragedy is that Mr. Patrick Walsh is deceased, which I deeply regret.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Three years ago, a 14 year old boy, Brian Rossiter, was arrested along with two other boys for public order offences in Clonmel. He was brought to Clonmel Garda station where he was put in a cell on his own. The following morning, he was found unconscious in his cell and taken to hospital, first in Clonmel and then to Cork. Three days later he died, never having regained consciousness.
One of the children arrested with Brian Rossiter has made a formal complaint that he was assaulted by a garda while he was in the cells. He states that Brian had stated that he too had been assaulted. The gardaí have at all times claimed that Brian was intoxicated by a mixture of drink and drugs and this information found its way into the autopsy report. We now know that the State Pathologist relied solely upon this information which came from Garda sources and had no toxicology test results when she wrote her report. Subsequent toxicology tests show no evidence of either drink or drugs in Brian's body.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has apologised for the manner in which his Department dealt with pleas from the Rossiter family. However, what baffles everyone concerned is why the Commissions of Investigation Act, which was put through by the Minister only 18 months ago, has not been used to inquire into this situation. Instead, he has used obsolete and little known legislation from 1924. The legislation which he has decided to invoke allows him to inquire into "the truth of any charge of complaint of neglect or violation of duty preferred against a member of the Garda Síochána". No one, the Rossiter family included, has preferred a charge against any member of the Garda Síochána. Who decided on the seven gardaí being inquired into on this list furnished to Mr. Hartnett, the senior counsel? It was not drawn up in consultation with or by the Rossiter family. Is the Minister making complaints against these seven gardaí? Why are certain gardaí who were involved on the night in question not included on the list?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Experts believe that to choose to use this legislation is to choose an inquiry that will prevent questions being asked and answered, rather than establishing the truth or allowing it to be revealed. If we passed legislation a year and a half ago called the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 that provides for a certain type of speedy, more efficient and certainly cheaper inquiry than we have been accustomed to, why is the Minister not using it instead of going back to the Dublin Police Act 1924, which he sought to apply in the case of Dean Lyons but had to change his mind? The impression one gets is that the Minister is either so chuffed with his discovery of this Act of which nobody knew that he wants to use it somewhere or the truth is being deliberately prevented from coming out.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is very anxious that the truth comes out. As I understand it, he is very satisfied that the inquiry, as constituted, will allow Mr. Hartnett the powers to summon witnesses and examine them under oath and all aspects of the arrest and detention of Brian Rossiter. He may require that any serving or retired member of the Garda be called to answer questions under oath, which is not a question of prosecutions. He may require persons other than gardaí to give evidence and is empowered to make findings and reach conclusions. It is the Minister's intention to publish the report. Whatever about the arguments regarding whether the 1924 Act or the recent inquiries Act should be used, it is the Minister's intention to do all of the above.
An argument that could also be relevant to the other case is that this is in keeping with the principles employed by the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004. There have been some complaints that the inquiry will be held in private. Mr. Hartnett has indicated to the Minister he intends to hold his inquiry in private but this is in keeping with the principles employed by the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 also. The object of this general principle is to make the proceedings less adversarial. The Minister has indicated he intends to publish the report of the Rossiter inquiry.
Deputy Rabbitte has raised this issue a number of times over the years and I accept his bona fides when he says that he wants the case investigated. An investigation into the matter is being undertaken by an eminent senior counsel which allows all of the issues that have been raised to be investigated. This is important. No one can refuse to contribute or be investigated by the inquiry, be they gardaí, former gardaí or other individuals, and the conclusions will be made public. The Minister's intention is to ensure this matter is dealt with fully to the satisfaction of the family.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach said the Minister is satisfied that this method of inquiry is adequate. The Minister was similarly satisfied about this method of inquiry in the Dean Lyons case and he needed to change his view. No other body I have discussed this matter with is satisfied and the Taoiseach does not appear to understand that there are only specific questions, which are listed in the correspondence from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which, incidentally, came from Garda headquarters. Only specific questions can be raised against specific gardaí.
Why are there only seven gardaí, why these particular seven, why exclude gardaí involved on the night and who was it that made these complaints in the first place? The unfortunate Rossiter family does not even know enough to make a complaint against any garda and has not done so. This Act expressly requires that one must be able to lodge such a complaint or there cannot be an inquiry but the Minister has ploughed ahead when his Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 would seem to be tailor-made for this situation.
We are talking about a 14 year old boy who died as a result of detention in a Garda station. We are talking about a situation where the State pathologist relied on information from the Garda to the effect he was drugged and intoxicated when subsequent toxicology tests showed he had neither drugs nor alcohol in his blood. This is a matter of grave public concern.
Michael D HigginsPat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why will the Minister not address the House and answer who selected the seven gardaí, who made complaints against them and why is he going down this road when he needed to back off in the case of Dean Lyons? This legislation has never been used before. It is very odd and I ask that the Taoiseach have it examined before it proceeds any further as it is quite farcical. I regret that the focus of commentary on it so far has been on a different issue, an issue that I incidentally agree with the Minister about. It is a diversion. The real issue is the terms of reference of this inquiry.
Róisín ShortallBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no argument about the last issue Deputy Rabbitte raised. All I can say to him on the information I have, and I will check the point he made, is that the inquiry, as constituted, will allow Mr. Hartnett to summon any witnesses and examine them under oath on all aspects of the arrest and all aspects of the detention of Brian. He may require any serving or retired member of the Garda Síochána, not just listed members, to answer questions under oath, which I assume includes everyone who would have been available that night, called to the scene, involved in the arrest and in the station. I understand this is what is meant but I will check. He may require persons other than gardaí to give evidence, which will obviously be anyone who has any information on this matter. He is empowered to make findings and reach conclusions. It is the Minister's intention to publish the report.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Why go back 80 years to the 1924 Act?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Jim O'Keeffe knows, we use legislation here every day that goes back years.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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We introduced a new Act last year.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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What about modern legislation?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If all these powers are available, what is restricting Mr. Hartnett in any way from taking up the point? I have heard what Deputy Rabbitte said and will raise the matter with the Minister but, on the information I have been given, it seems that Mr. Hartnett is not restricted.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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In recent years, many local authorities, when giving planning permission for new residential communities, are dictating that crucial public services, such as water supply, sewerage systems, road repairs, public lighting and care of public open spaces, are maintained by private management companies rather than the local authorities themselves.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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This is becoming the standard in the Dublin local authorities, County Kildare and a number of other areas. The upshot is that mainly young working people buying their first homes are saddled with huge management company fees of up to €500 or more in the case of apartments——
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is in the thousands of euro.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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——which are demanded by the companies for these services on top of their mortgages, child care and transport costs.
Tyrellstown in Fingal is a new community of 2,000 homes built in the past four years and will have a population of 5,000 or 6,000 soon, which is the size of many medium sized towns around the State. It is twice the size of Dingle town, for example, or perhaps I should say An Daingean.
11:00 am
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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However, by the underhanded means by which the local authorities effect this wholesale privatisation of services, the management companies are foisted on the householders and a new local tax is levied. This is a significant inequity because in neighbouring estates built a few years earlier that may include a "millionaires row", services from the local authorities are provided through general taxation, as should be the case.
It is also a scam because the directors of the management companies for up to the first five years are the developers who built the estates, sold the houses and made massive profits from the new young house owners who, before these management companies were foisted on them, would have had developers maintain these basic services for a period of years until the estate was taken in charge by the local authorities. They are now dragging householders to court, demanding money from them and scaring them with intimidating letters from debt collectors. If these management companies were mooted in the 1960s, the mohair suited developers who financed Fianna Fáil would have thought it a Tacateer heaven but they would not have dared implement it.
It is a major instance of a new rip-off and inequity. A revolt will begin because these scare tactics make the reality obvious. Is privatising pubic services in this way and putting a new local tax on hard-pressed taxpayers a conscious Government policy? During an adjournment debate Deputy Noel Ahern, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and known to the Taoiseach, told Deputy Catherine Murphy that the general matters administered by management companies were never the responsibility of local authorities. In fact, all these services were the responsibility of local authorities. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to immediately conduct an investigation? Will he also demand that local authorities desist from this practice and abolish the existing management companies that are the source of this inequity?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of the old system which, as the Deputy outlined was that the council would not take charge until the developer, builder or contractor was completely finished building the estate. That worked effectively. Many years ago it took a long time.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It still does. It takes ten years.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy mentioned areas such as Kilnamanagh, which took 20 years to be taken in charge. Many others took an extremely long time.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Tánaiste will explain to the Taoiseach why that happened.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Throughout the city private companies increasingly operate and take charge.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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They are not taking charge. They are prevented from taking charge.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to answer the question. Some management companies can be quite good and effective but many of them are not and are quite difficult.
This is not a Government policy. Local authorities have the powers to deal with these issues. It is not controlled or directed by central Government. If local authorities want to act in a different way or impose restrictions they can do so when issuing planning permission. A valid argument exists on whether legislation should govern management companies because many of them——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption. Deputy Higgins submitted a question. He had two minutes in which to submit it and used four minutes to do so. It was done with courtesy. The Taoiseach is entitled to answer.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Opposition parties could usefully direct their councillors in these areas to act on this as between them they have a majority.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Councillors do not give out planning permission.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael and Labour are responsible for these issues by and large because they do nothing about them.
An argument can be made for introducing legislation on management companies. The fact that no legislation governs them arose as an issue in Dublin Corporation. Legislation should be in place.
Some charges fall within the management companies' service charges and that is a different issue. The point made by Deputy Joe Higgins is that some management companies operate effectively and others do not. They impose a large charge——
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is a rip-off. They do not do anything except cut the grass.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Councillors from the Opposition parties form the majority in these councils and they should try to be more proactive in dealing with the issue.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Unelected managers of local authorities impose this as a condition and the fundamental inequity is that young people now purchasing a home under great duress and at high cost are saddled with a local tax of between €500 and €1,000 per year. In the first five years it is payable to the developer to clean up his or her act and finish the estate so they can move on. Kilnamanagh was an unfortunate example for the Taoiseach to use. It was built but not handed over by Brennan and McGowan and others who are well-known to his party.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not appropriate to mention names of people who are outside the House.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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They have been mentioned elsewhere. Under this system, in the example illustrated by the Taoiseach these particular developers would get fees for 20 years. The inequity is compounded by the fact that management companies' contracts are presented to young house buyers at the same time as they sign contracts for their new homes. That is a time of immense stress and the contracts are signed under duress because the people involved need a home.
I sound a warning to the Taoiseach. At this stage this might affect tens of thousands of homes and residents. It is becoming a serious issue. Deputy Catherine Murphy, Independent Deputies, other Deputies and I will make this a major issue in the near future and in the lead up to the next election. Thousands of young home owners tell us they cannot endure the situation and they cannot afford the current levels. Those levels will become intolerable because when the sewage and water systems will need major refurbishment in ten or 15 years time, the home owners will be saddled with these debts. We want them abolished and that is what I want to hear from the Taoiseach.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This involves a number of issues. A good and valid point on the control of management companies and how they are governed was made by Dublin city manager, Mr. John Fitzgerald, and I know that issue is being examined.
The point made with regard to local authorities allowing developments and zones is not correct because they have power and a direct influence at local level when dealing with these issues. Management companies may have legitimate charges such as refuse charges, which everyone pays and which the Deputy knows will not be abolished. However, where these companies undertake to carry out responsibilities and perform services, and charge young people and others but then do not do the work, a question is raised on introducing regulations to force them to carry out that work.
Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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They work down the road.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a different point.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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They only cut the grass. That is all they do.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Developers should not be allowed to charge and then not provide services, which happens in some areas. In other areas management companies provide extremely good services. They maintain the recreational standards of the area, provide leisure facilities and do gardening.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In many areas in my constituency not to mind elsewhere. Overall, the question of legislation will be examined but local authorities should not run away from their responsibilities.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Tell the Minister to inform them of that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They have the power to direct and control these issues in many cases.