Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 9: To ask the Minister for Education and Science the number of primary school children in classes of more than 30; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [27564/05]

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The most recent data on class size available to my Department show that in the 2004-05 school year 72,581 pupils were taught in classes of more than 30 pupils. This is less than half the number of children who were in classes of 30 plus when this Government took up office.

Major improvements in school staffing have been made in recent years with the hiring of more than 4,500 additional teachers. This represents the largest increase in teacher numbers since the expansion of free education. The annual estimated value of the additional expenditure on these posts is more than €200 million.

In 1996-97, the average class size in our primary schools was 27. It is now 24. In 1996-97 there was one teacher for every 22 children in our primary schools. Today there is one teacher for every 17 children, the lowest pupil-teacher ratio in the history of the State. Aside from decreasing average class size, the unprecedented increase in school staffing in recent years has also greatly improved the services provided for children with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas. While there is more to be done to reduce class sizes further, the progress that has been made in this area in recent years should be acknowledged.

While the average class size nationally has been brought down to 24, I am committed, in line with Government policy, to delivering further reductions in class sizes for children under nine. In achieving the Government target for smaller class sizes, priority must in the first instance be given to children with special needs and those in disadvantaged areas. Under the new action plan for tackling educational disadvantage which I launched last May, more children in disadvantaged schools will be in classes of 20 in the current school year.

With regard to the number of classes of over 30 in our schools, the general rule is that schools are staffed on the basis of having a maximum class size across the school of 29. Where some classes in a school have class sizes of greater than 29, it is often because a decision has been taken at local level to use the teaching resources to have smaller numbers in other classes. Indeed, I often find that when I examine why a particular school has a class of 35 in a particular grade, the answer is that there is another class in the same school with just 15 pupils or so. Figures on the number of children in classes of over 30 should be interpreted with caution; the average class size in a particular school can be more instructive.

The number of children in classes of over 30 has halved since this Government took office, major improvements in staffing supports for children with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas have been put in place and further improvements will be made in the current school year.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is like blaming the principal for the class size. Sometimes he or she cannot avoid having such class sizes. Often a school must wait a year to get an extra teacher so the principal has no alternative but to have larger classes. Does the Minister envisage any changes being made to ensure that schools need not wait a full year to get an extra teacher? Can the staffing be based on the current year's intake rather than on the previous year's? This is causing much difficulty.

This is a commitment in the programme for Government which the Minister has described as a noble aspiration in the past. Does she believe this commitment can be achieved in the next 18 months or will it take significantly longer?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The only way to ensure that schools due to gain a teacher next year gain that teacher now would be by ensuring that schools which are due to lose a teacher next year would lose that teacher now. This is a result of the panel system, whereby schools must take their staff from the panel. That would not be fair either. The current system is probably a good way of dealing with this, as long as there is a good appeals process, which I believe there is.

The appeals process operates twice during the year, in July and at the end of the first week in October. It ensures that developing schools, for example, schools that have gained huge numbers of pupils, can make their appeal and be given the teachers they require. Other circumstances are also examined. It is particularly important that schools which are developing quickly and taking in large numbers should get the teachers they require immediately. Generally, however, because of the panel system, it is not possible to allocate the extra teachers without also removing the teachers from the schools that are due to lose teachers.

I intend to continue to work towards reducing class sizes. It was my intention, in the first instance, to do it with disadvantaged schools. We have done that and I will continue this year to reduce class sizes further for those schools.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The average OECD class size is 21.4 while in Ireland it is 24. We are still above the OECD average. The Minister quoted statistics from 1997, which is the date that is always picked.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It was the year I was elected.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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However, more of our GDP was being spent on primary and second level education at that time. It has fallen from 5.3% in 1995 to 4.2% of GDP now. Statistics can be used in different ways but that is a worrying figure. In what timeframe will the Minister be able to implement the noble aspiration in the programme for Government regarding class sizes of 21 or fewer for children under nine years old?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The word "noble" is being bandied about by the Opposition. Something that is noble is something that is worthwhile and worth achieving.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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It is the aspiration aspect that we do not like.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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We all aspire to something that is noble. To hold the office of Minister for Education and Science is a noble aspiration for many Members and some of us, fortunately, have managed to achieve it. Noble aspirations, therefore, are achieved and I am confident they will be achieved in the future.

It is interesting to note with regard to class size in OECD reports that outcomes in other countries are no better. Quality of education is equally important. Those with the smallest class sizes have not necessarily achieved the highest results either in PISA or in the literacy and numeracy report that we launched last year, where schools with very small classes had, unfortunately, severe literacy and numeracy problems. Exterior conditions, such as family and community conditions, did not facilitate learning outcomes. It is a wider matter than just class size, despite the progress we are making and will continue to make.