Dáil debates
Wednesday, 5 October 2005
Other Questions.
Decentralisation Programme.
1:00 pm
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Question 85: To ask the Minister for Finance the list of properties which have been purchased, leased or where contracts to purchase or lease have been entered into arising from the Government's planned decentralisation programme; the amount spent to date; the total anticipated spend in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26635/05]
Shane McEntee (Meath, Fine Gael)
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Question 90: To ask the Minister for Finance his estimate of the cost of the property commitments in the early mover decentralisation locations and the number of locations within the decentralisation programme which will have buildings available for occupation by the end of 2006. [26697/05]
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 85 and 90 together.
I would like to emphasise once again that the Government is committed to the full implementation of the decentralisation programme. This programme is a major undertaking involving the relocation of 10,300 civil and public servants, 60 Departments and offices and more than 56 different locations around the country.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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It is probably one of the biggest infrastructural projects undertaken by the State in recent times.
From the OPW's viewpoint there are two main aspects to the programme: the identification and procurement of suitable sites and the construction and fitting out of buildings on these sites. Overall, the programme of site identification and acquisition is progressing satisfactorily. To date, property acquisition negotiations have been completed or significantly advanced in 23 locations.
In Athlone, the Curragh, Navan, Furbo and Sligo, OPW owned sites have been identified and will be used to accommodate decentralised offices. In Longford and Newcastlewest, sites have been acquired from the relevant local authorities. Privately owned sites have been purchased in Buncrana and Clonakilty. In Tullamore, the OPW has entered into an agreement to purchase an office block when it is completed in September 2006.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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Contracts for sale have been received in a further 11 locations including Carlow, Donegal, Dungarvan, Killarney, Knock, Portarlington, Portlaoise, Thurles, Tipperary, Carrick-on-Shannon and Thomastown. Other locations at which site acquisition is at an advanced stage are Cavan and Trim.
The total purchase cost for the 18 non-OPW owned sites, together with the building in Tullamore, is estimated to reach €35.7 million. Of this amount approximately €13 million is in respect of sites acquired from local authorities and State agencies. The overall site acquisition cost of the entire decentralisation programme is expected to be in the region of €75 million to €100 million, excluding VAT.
The average cost per acre to date is about €430,000. The cost per acre ranges from €65,000 in a rural location to €3.8 million for a prime development site in a town centre location. The prices paid to date for sites are considered by the OPW to be in line with market prices. The OPW's decisions to acquire sites are based, inter alia, on professional valuation advice, which reflects the prevailing market conditions in the locations concerned. Factors which influence market conditions for sites in a particular location include zoning, accessibility, proximity to amenities, and the general supply of, and demand for developments sites. By end 2006, it is expected that permanent buildings will be available for occupation in four locations. These buildings, together with temporary space, which is being sourced in a number of locations for advance decentralisation groups, will provide accommodation for upwards of 1,000 civil servants by the end of 2006.
The OPW is continuing negotiations to secure sites and property solutions for the balance of locations involved in the programme and significant progress in this regard will be achieved over the coming months. In summary, I want to reiterate that the site acquisition programme is proceeding at a pace which will facilitate delivery of the decentralised office accommodation within the indicative timescales set out in the decentralisation implementation group's June 2005 report.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does the Minister of State not consider an average cost of €430,000 an acre for decentralised sites to be an extraordinary price? Is the Government intent on driving up land prices in the 53 decentralisation locations, with knock-on consequences for local businesses and indeed for young people trying to buy houses in those areas?
The Minister has indicated that he now expects only 1,000 civil servants to be decentralised by the end of 2006. In a previous answer to me he indicated that only around 130 will be decentralised by the end of 2005. That indicates that to the end of 2005 decentralisation will have cost about €230,000 in site costs per civil servant moved. Is this not turning out to be one of the most costly exercises in the history of the State? I do not want to hear about a hut in Ladd Lane being sold for an extraordinary price. If the Minister of State gets good prices, that does not mean that he can go on a drunken sailor's spree as regards buying land in decentralisation locations throughout the State.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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As regards the price I indicated, which was an average between €60,000 and €3.8 million, it reflects almost exactly the market situation. I recommend the Deputy to travel around the country to see what is happening in rural towns.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister of State does not need to patronise me. Just as he knows about Dublin, I know a good deal about matters outside the capital. There is no need to patronise me.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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Perhaps she should be more up to date, as indicated by the fact that she is surprised by the figure of €430,000. One of her Labour Party colleagues in the Seanad referred to the God-forsaken places down the country that some Departments are being sent to. I have not heard the Deputy withdraw that particular statement on behalf of her party. There is a vibrant property market in the country and it is important to note that the €22.3 million we got for a one acre site in Dublin compared to the €430,000 on average around the country still reflects very good value. There is further speculation that a site which we will be offering to the market shortly may make in the region of €50 million per acre in Dublin. It is a matter of location, location, location. We have striven to get the very best locations for the decentralised offices. The €430,000 accurately reflects the current market value of land throughout the provinces.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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A different controversial site, at Thornton, cost €200,000 an acre. That was an extraordinary increase in land values. The Minister of State is basically celebrating driving up land values at 53 locations around Ireland. It is great for the landowners, the speculators, auctioneers and the people handling the legal deals because they are all on percentage cuts. What about the young couple trying to buy a house in an area or the local business person who is trying to compete with the prices that the Minister of State and his friends are artificially driving up? He is telling the House, in effect, that he is proud of inflating property values because he is mismanaging the decentralisation process so abjectly.
How can he justify the movement of only 150 civil servants? Only 100 have gone so far and 50 more may go by the end of the year. By the end of next year, he has just told the House, 1,000 may have shifted at a total cost of up to €40 million. Where is value for money for the poor old taxpayer in this?
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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The Deputy mentioned the Thornton site, which comprised 150 acres within ten miles of O'Connell Street, as recommended by experts, and bought for development. That was the market value of that particular site.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The site next door sold for two-thirds of that amount.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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I have listened to the Deputy's questions. I would like the opportunity to answer them. As regards the 150 civil servants that will be decentralised before the end of this year, those are people who have gone as advance groups. I cannot click my fingers and create buildings. Also, it is a voluntary scheme and we are involved in intense negotiations with the trade unions representing the civil servants and making progress.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are only going on what the former Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, said.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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Some 9,000 have applied to go. A further 13,000 have applied to decentralise since the closing date of the early move, or since the end of September.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He said there would be 1,000 by the end of 2006.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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There will be 1,000 by the end of 2006. I can go though the figures for 2007 because we have laid down indicative dates. As soon as the buildings are complete the people will be ready to move.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister of State confirming that only five of the 77 locations that were to be entirely moved by the end of 2006 will even have buildings available? There are only five locations, and only two, Tullamore and Sligo, will have any staff moved. Therefore the deadline set by the Minister as a critical test for Deputy Parlon's performance as Minister of State seems to have been totally abandoned.
We have yet to hear about the building costs for the newly purchased sites. The Minister of State referred to €75 million for the purchase of the sites and €900 million for the total cost of moving. I examined the figures on decentralisation. Is it not the case that less than 10% of staff in the vast majority of the organisations designated for an early move have indicated a willingness to move? How will staff be moved with the haste intended by the Minister of State, as demonstrated by the building work already under way, if 90% of staff and in some cases more than 90% of skilled essential staff in the organisations in question have indicated they wish to remain in Dublin?
Will the political ambition to be seen to deliver have a serious impact on the capacity of the organisations affected to deliver? This is an important issue which the Minister of State has never addressed. He has never told us what serious risk assessments have been done by the organisations on the impact of the move, particularly as so many people do not want to move and so many key skills will be lost as a result. The danger is that the next report of the Comptroller and Auditor General will state that while all the buildings have been constructed and sites acquired, the Departments were unable to move because no staff planning has been carried out.
The Minister of State indicated that the Office of Public Works is in the process of buying 75 acres of land to accommodate the early movers and their 3,000 staff. How many square feet of property will be vacated in Dublin as a result? I presume this is how the State will secure a payback on its investment of €900 million. How many sites will be vacated in Dublin and where are they? The Minister of State must provide this information given the revenue from vacated sites was held out as the quid pro quo for committing €900 million to the decentralisation programme.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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In addition to property considerations, there are many positive reasons for taking the decentralisation route. The purpose of the programme is to promote essential balanced regional development. Given that the Government encourages incoming multinationals to locate throughout the country, there is no reason it should not put its money where its mouth is. Decentralisation will provide a massive impetus in this regard.
To address an issue raised by Deputy Burton, thousands of civil servants spend hours commuting from towns and villages located within an 80 mile radius of Dublin. Decentralisation will offer them an immense opportunity to improve their lifestyles.
The buildings for the first five candidates will be completed and staff will be at their desks in the five decentralised locations. The following tranche of buildings will be under construction and some of them will be semi-complete. I have provided indicative dates, all of which I can provide to the Deputies, but all the early movers will be finished by 2007. The term "early movers" is used for the first group of organisations because of the large number of staff who applied to move under the central applications facility and the availability of property solutions. There is no difficulty in this regard.
This week, intense negotiations will take place between management in the Department of Finance and the IMPACT trade union, which represents the most difficult sector in terms of the professional grades involved. I have no doubt solutions will be found for all the human resources problems. Decentralisation is entirely voluntary and a commitment has been given that those who choose to remain in Dublin will have gainful employment and career opportunities. The programme will provide significant career opportunities to civil servants in place around the country and those who move outside Dublin.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does that mean staff who do not move will not have career opportunities?
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State did not answer either of my questions. I asked about the fact that in the vast majority of the organisations affected, less than 10% of staff indicated a willingness to move. Will it transpire that, having committed to buildings and sites, insufficient staff will be available to run services in the new locations? What square footage is being vacated in Dublin? The Minister of State went off on a tangent instead of answering those questions.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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I answered the Deputy's earlier questions. As I stated, the decentralisation implementation group, an independent body chaired by Mr. Justice Fergus Flood, has indicated there will be no difficulty in terms of factors such as the loss of skills. The reason certain Departments have been included on the early mover list is that no difficulties are envisaged and a large number of staff have signed up for the programme. Those who applied may not come from the original Department. Staff are already switching Departments. For example, in the Office of Public Works several people——
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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How can we allow members of staff in a non-related Department or agency join the Health and Safety Authority as inspectors? We want the organisations affected to do their job effectively. We do not want to fit square pegs into round holes.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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Of the 10,600 civil servants affected by decentralisation, approximately 1,000 are specialist staff while the others are ordinary civil servants from various grades. Transfer to other Departments does not present a difficulty because civil servants currently transfer between Departments all the time. It will not impinge on efficiency by virtue of the fact that members of staff choose to move to a different Department.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State should read the individual reports.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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I anticipate that the ability of staff to work in a Department of their choice in a location close to where they live will have a positive impact on efficiency and eliminate the need to commute for five or six hours per day.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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How much property will be vacated in Dublin?
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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I do not have the specific figure to hand but expensive, valuable property owned by the State will be vacated. In addition, the State will be in a position to surrender leases which are costing it substantial amounts of money. Property in Dublin 2 fetches the highest prices for lease or purchase in the State and, as such, the programme is positive from the point of view of property.
As the Deputy will be aware, to meet its additional accommodation requirements, the Oireachtas will make extensive use of the building which houses the Department of Agriculture and Food. Already, a substantial amount of office space in the building in question is being used by parliamentary assistants to Deputies. Approximately 130 members of staff at the Department of Agriculture and Food have already moved into temporary accommodation in Portlaoise in advance of the Department's new headquarters being built in the town. I note also that the Department of Health and Children recently decided to move out of Hawkins House temporarily. Everyone agrees the building offers the most horrendous accommodation one could find for civil servants.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is moving to the north side of Dublin.
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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Yes, and a commitment has been given that the Department will move back to Marlborough House, the current headquarters of the Department of Education and Science, as soon as it moves to its new decentralised offices in Mullingar. A definite plan is in place and I assure Deputies it will work out positively.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister of State send me the details I sought on the properties being vacated?
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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I will furnish the Deputy with all information available to the Department.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister of State indicated that thousands of civil servants will have moved by the end of 2006. Did he specify a figure of 3,000?
Tom Parlon (Laois-Offaly, Progressive Democrats)
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The actual number of posts within the five Departments in question is 555 but I expect, with the advance movements of other Departments, that the figure will increase to close to 2,000 by the end of 2006.