Dáil debates
Thursday, 23 June 2005
Order of Business (Resumed).
12:00 pm
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle——
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
May I raise a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Cheann Comhairle, I was attempting to raise a point of order.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In all sincerity, would it not be in the best interests of this House if this very serious issue was clarified?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Chair cannot clarify it for the Members. The Chair has clarified for the Members that if they are unhappy about it, they have a course open to them——
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How could anybody be happy with it?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——that has been used in this House from the time of the establishment of the State, namely, a substantive motion on the issue.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The point is it could reasonably be——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Chair has no involvement in the issue.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Cheann Comhairle, I want to raise two points of order. First, in the 16 years I have been a Member of this House I have not raised any matter that is frivolous, point of order or otherwise.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not a point of order, Deputy. If you are raising it as a point of order, it is frivolous.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, out of respect for me and other Members of the House, to withdraw your reference to what you described as a frivolous point of order that you had not even heard. Second, I want to raise the point of order I started to raise earlier. There is an official record of the proceedings of this House.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not a point of order.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
You do not know whether it is.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It has already been raised by Deputy Rabbitte and I dealt with it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is referred to again and again. Two Ministers of the Government have put two contradictory statements on the record. Which record is correct?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy, you are out of order and you are being frivolous.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a matter of profound importance.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They have contradicted each other.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I call Deputy Gormley.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Which record is correct? The Ceann Comhairle should answer that.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
May we seek your guidance on this matter, a Cheann Comhairle? How is it possible for Deputies to raise this very important matter?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy, the Chair has indicated it can be raised by way of a substantive motion. I am moving on to the next business, No. 26.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Which Minister was telling the truth?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One of them was telling lies.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I call Deputy Kenny.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Cheann Comhairle, Ministers in the past lied to each other and lied to the House.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy, withdraw the word "lies".
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There were court cases because Ministers lied. I want to know which of these two Ministers was telling the truth.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy, you should withdraw the remark that the Ministers lied.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The courts proved they lied.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I did not say anybody lied.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The courts of this country proved that Ministers over there lied.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Stagg, withdraw the allegation that Ministers lied.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Stagg, do you withdraw the allegation?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The courts of this country proved that Ministers over there lied——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is absolutely right.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was not Ministers who are in the House now.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On a point of order, the matters raised by Deputies Rabbitte, Gilmore and others are of very serious import. I recall a judge of the court making a comment to the effect that one or other of two senior Ministers in a Fianna Fáil Government committed perjury. You, a Cheann Comhairle, as the Chairman of this Parliament, must ensure that Members have their rights.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One of those fundamental rights is that the truth be told. We appear to have a difficulty in finding a method of how that can be established.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is no difficulty whatsoever. The Chair has already pointed out that it is by way of a substantive motion. It is not a matter for the Chair.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to give you notice that in terms of the rights of Members to have the truth spoken in this House by those who have responsibility——
Paul KehoeEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——the Whip of the Fine Gael Party will ask you to summon a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to allow this matter to be cleared up and that the rights of Members to know the truth from the mouths of Ministers be established in accordance with what Deputies Rabbitte, Gilmore, Stagg and Jim O'Keeffe have raised. This is a matter of very considerable importance which does down the perception of this House as being able to do its duty honourably and with integrity and credibility.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is a very simple issue, namely, that the record reflects two contradictory statements from two Ministers.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy should not——
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am making a modest proposal. Could you, a Cheann Comhairle, request that both Ministers come to the House-——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Chair will not request that. The Chair has never done that in the past and does not intend to do it now.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——to clarify the record and the contradictory statements?
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to make a point of order.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I call Deputy Boyle. I hope it is a point of order.
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Cheann Comhairle, there is a facility for a notice of motion to be put to your office before 2.30 p.m. today for a Private Notice Question to allow both Ministers to make a statement before the House and be questioned on that. I ask that you facilitate that.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All applications to my office are considered. I call No. 26, the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 [Seanad], Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage, to conclude at 8 p.m.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Boyle's request was reasonable.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Cheann Comhairle-——
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Minister wants to respond.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For the record, one Minister stated: "The investigation by Assistant Commissioner Carty was completed and presented to me and, in turn, to the D[irector of] P[ublic] P[rosecutions]."
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That does not arise on the Order of Business. Deputy, I ask you to resume your seat. Do you wish to leave the House?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
However, the other Minister, Deputy McDowell, stated: "the Carty report was not delivered ... either to me or to the then Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue".
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy will have to leave the House.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On a point of order-——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There will be no more points of order. I call No. 26, the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 [Seanad], Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage, to conclude at 8 p.m.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Cheann Comhairle, do you agree that the record of the House——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy, you are being disorderly. If you do not resume your seat, you will leave.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want your view on the matter.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We resume on amendment No. 12, which was being discussed with amendment No. 73. Deputy Crowe was in possession.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Cheann Comhairle, do you agree that the record of the House should reflect the true position?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not a point of order. If you do not resume your seat, you will leave the House.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That was a threat as well.