Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The revelations in the second report of the Morris tribunal about the handling by gardaí of the tragic and, as yet, unsolved death of Richie Barron raise serious questions. I welcome the fact that there will be a debate on the report in the House this week. The report raises serious systems issues about the operation of gardaí at senior level and the relationship between the gardaí and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Today, the chairman of the Garda Síochána Complaints Board complained that a wall of silence met investigations into complaints.

Fine Gael believes in a strong, effective and accountable Garda Síochána. The people want to have confidence in the police force, want to see it on the streets and want to know that it is responsive to their needs so that when they call on the force, it will deal with them fairly and speedily, but all recent experiences, unfortunately, suggest the public cannot have that level of confidence.

The Garda Bill, which is awaiting Report Stage in the House, contains a number of measures that could bring about reasonable reform but the Government has failed to convince the Opposition that the contents of the Bill will meet the challenges laid out by Mr. Justice Morris. The Minister promoting this Bill, and the senior gardaí advising him, are intrinsically linked with the issues dealt with by the Morris tribunal. The decision by the Garda Commissioner to transfer five gardaí, who are criticised in the report, to Dublin on full salary has done nothing to bolster confidence that the lessons of the Morris tribunal have been learned.

Public confidence in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has never been lower, not least because of his handling of the recent issue of café bars or his reported remarks that Fianna Fáil is a party of cowards and ruthless people, but also because of the general perception of his inability to handle this sensitive brief effectively.

I will make a constructive suggestion that the Taoiseach might consider. Everyone here wants to see a Garda Bill and a force in which the people can have absolute confidence. Will the Taoiseach be prepared to stall the Bill before Report Stage, invite a three person committee, chaired by someone with the experience of Mr. Chris Patten, to look at the Bill in terms of the Morris recommendations and fully address those recommendations and assess whether the structures for handling complaints against the gardaí are in line with best international practice? We all want to see a force that is exemplary in its standards and effective in its methods and that enjoys the full and absolute confidence of all people.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government takes a serious view of the second report of the Morris tribunal, as it did with the first one. It is a serious concern for everyone that the Garda is properly administered and accountable. We look forward to the debate on the Morris report in the House on Friday. We accept the findings of the report and we will act upon them.

Last year, following the publication of the first report of the Morris tribunal, the Government dismissed a Garda superintendent while another superintendent and a chief superintendent retired. The Garda Commissioner dismissed several members of the force of the rank of garda. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, stated clearly the response to this report must go far beyond implications for individual members of the force and that substantial reform is required. I also agree with Deputy Kenny that reforms are required. These are contained in the Garda Síochána Bill which is on its final Stages after much debate.

The Bill provides for the establishment of a Garda Síochána ombudsman commission to investigate complaints against the force independently. It will also establish a Garda Síochána inspectorate to examine and report on the effectiveness and efficiency of the force. These provisions were introduced in response to the first report of the Morris tribunal. It is also in response to the garda complaints report that also asked for such provisions.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform strongly believes that the establishment of these two bodies, together with the general reform of the Garda Síochána and its relationship with the Government, will transform the system of accountability and oversight of the force. He has appointed a committee chaired by Senator Maurice Hayes to oversee the implementation of the Bill as soon as it is enacted. The Minister will introduce an amendment to the Bill to require gardaí to account for their actions as members of the force. This new duty was identified in the report of the tribunal as an additional measure that should be introduced. The Garda Commissioner will soon outline a comprehensive package of management reform within the Garda Síochána in response to the first report of the tribunal.

There has been much comment in recent days on the disciplinary implications for those members concerned below the rank of superintendent. I have been advised that the matter is being examined by the Garda Commissioner. The transfer of Garda members from Donegal is a separate matter from any disciplinary action that may be taken against them. These transfers do not mean that the Director of Public Prosecutions may not decide to prosecute any Garda member involved. This is a separate matter from disciplinary action. We should not prejudge any decision the DPP may take.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I made the suggestion on the basis that if the recommendations of the second report of the Morris tribunal and the extent of the Garda Síochána Bill were examined by a three person committee with international experience, it could report by the end of September which would allow the Government to enact an effective, modern and acceptable Garda Bill by the end of the year. The Taoiseach claims repeatedly that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is convinced that his Garda Síochána Bill will work. However, Mr. Justice Morris made recommendations that are not contained in it. Given that the Minister, a former Attorney General, and the gardaí advising him are intrinsically linked with the seriousness of the Morris tribunal, is the Taoiseach convinced that the Garda Síochána Bill will be effective? Is the Government happy that the Bill will work?

Does the Taoiseach wish to put paid to rumours circulating that he had a serious row with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform about the continuation in office of senior gardaí? People are concerned that another McBrearty case may occur. They are worried that structures will not change sufficiently to have accountability, transparency and professionalism in the Garda. Morale in the force is down. Those men and women who do their best for the State in their public service as gardaí feel somewhat disillusioned by the wooliness that now surrounds this matter.

The Garda Síochána Bill must be suspended on Report Stage so that it can be analysed and the Morris tribunal recommendations taken into account. It can then be brought before the House before the end of September so that an effective Garda Bill can be enacted. It must be removed from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who seems to be gung ho on a range of other issues.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Enormous effort has gone into the Garda Síochána Bill which is on its final Stages. Those key issues all Members want addressed are provided for in the Bill. The ombudsman commission will independently investigate complaints against members of the force. This was a major issue of the second report of the Morris tribunal. Many people will argue that this provision should be in place even if there were no Morris tribunal. The Bill also establishes an inspectorate to examine and report on the effectiveness and efficiency of the force. Other amendments on Report Stage will take account of actions of the force and the issue of when the complaints board meets a wall of silence when investigating, as stated today by Mr. Gordon Holmes. These significant issues will be dealt with in the Bill.

While I wish these events in Donegal did not happen, there are another 120 cases, not just one or two. All Members refer to the McBrearty case. I have met Mr. McBrearty Snr. and I understand the difficulties of the case and that there is a legal case next week. We all have much sympathy for the family. However, there are 120 cases like that one against the State and the Garda starting off against actions in Donegal. How can anyone be happy with this?

The Government wants to see tough action taken. Such events cannot be allowed happen and nobody does anything. This was everyone's concern. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has reflected this view time and again and I support him strongly on that.

It is important that the Garda Síochána Bill is passed. The Morris tribunal is not going to end, regrettably, as all matters must be fully investigated. While some of it is hearsay, I understand more difficult matters will emerge. It will still have to be monitored. However, it is best that the Garda Síochána Bill is passed to deal with these issues. As time goes on, we will see if other amendments are necessary. I want this Bill to be put in place quickly so that we can get these mechanisms of accountability and transparency up and running.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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How can the Taoiseach repeat this to the House given the facts of this matter? When the second Morris report was published, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform launched it and claimed credit for it. He then stated that the House must facilitate early passage of the Garda Síochána Bill. However, the major recommendation directed to the Oireachtas by Mr. Justice Morris was that we should review the Garda Síochána Bill, not just amend it.

After claiming credit for the report, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform created another distraction by his selective leaking of correspondence to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, seeking to blame, as he darkly thundered, those who had their knees under the Cabinet table in 1997. This is the same man who, when Attorney General, went public to say he was very displeased at the length of time it took him to extract documents from the former Garda Commissioner, Mr. Pat Byrne. People who should know better seem to forget that the man did not become Attorney General until 1999. If he could not extract the documents in 1999, how should the members of a previous Government that went out of office in 1997, be aware of this matter? How can this be reconciled with the evidence of his own Secretary General, who gave sworn testimony to the tribunal that the matter was not reported substantially to the management of the Department until 1999? How can the Taoiseach come into the House and state with a straight face that he is honouring Mr. Justice Morris's report when he is doing the exact opposite? The Taoiseach is betraying the Morris report and the work Mr. Justice Morris put into it by not responding to the single recommendation directed to the Government and to this House. The other recommendations pertain to managerial operational issues but the recommendation to review the Garda Síochána Bill was directed to this House.

The Taoiseach then adduces the support of Senator Maurice Hayes — the man charged with implementing it, who has stated that it is rubbish and is unworkable. How will the commission function? The Department has captured the Minister. He creates distractions all over the place with the odd selective leak, the same old style, muttering deep threats about what the Opposition should fear. The Opposition has nothing to fear on this issue. Will the Taoiseach observe Mr. Justice Morris's request for a review of the Bill?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Since the first report was published last year, the Minister and his Department have been working on the Bill and on the amendments to the Bill. The Garda Síochána Bill has been passing through the House, and Mr. Justice Morris's statements have not been ignored. If Deputy Rabbitte had been listening to me, I stated that the Minister is now bringing forward an amendment to the Bill to require gardaí to account for their actions. This issue and a host of other areas which he is examining has been identified by the tribunal. Clearly, the Minister has tried to follow the contents of both reports and to set up the independent investigations Mr. Justice Morris recommends as well as an inspectorate to examine the effectiveness and efficiency of the force.

These are the issues raised as shortcomings in the present system. As recently as today, we heard Mr. Gordon Holmes state in the Garda Síochána Complaints Board report that a wall of silence comes up when one attempts to investigate some of these matters. In this Bill, the Minister addresses these issues. The establishment of an ombudsman commission to investigate independently future complaints about the gardaí, and the establishment of an inspectorate to examine how the Garda works effectively are not insubstantial changes. In addition, the Minister has a host of other amendments the House will debate over the next few weeks. I do not see how he is missing the thrust of the report. The House will have an opportunity to debate the report on Friday and if Members highlight these issues, I am sure the Minister will examine them. Surely however, the kernel of the recommendations is that we must have an ombudsman process and an inspectorate process independent of the Garda to examine issues. This is not dodging the point of independent investigation.

As far as the issue raised about the years 1997 or 1999 is concerned, the Minister has stated that there was a delay in getting some of these files. These relate to matters and details the Minister has dealt with before and are statements of fact as to what happened at that period.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That reply entirely distorts what is happening. One amendment is being brought forward to require gardaí to answer for their actions while on duty. It is beyond belief that one must legislate for this. This is not the issue. Mr. Justice Morris studied and assessed the Bill and concluded that the Bill, not a single paltry routine amendment that should not be necessary in the first place, but the Bill itself should be reviewed. The Taoiseach appears to be covering up by stating that an inspectorate and an ombudsman system are being introduced. Nothing of the kind is being done. The word "ombudsman" has been attached to this commission or committee that will deal with these issues. Specifically, on the matter of what Mr. Justice Morris calls legitimate complaints against the gardaí, he has recommended a review of the Bill and the Taoiseach is avoiding that issue. He is also avoiding the issue about the dispute between himself and the Minister following the publication of the Morris report. The Taoiseach did not answer the question. When two senior gardaí were removed on full pension — one must ask the most serious questions about the discipline being imposed for the most heinous negligence on duty, and worse — was any garda officer senior to that pair asked to resign?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte cannot state at one point that the Government is not doing what Mr. Justice Morris recommended and then state that gardaí are retiring with their full pensions. Mr. Justice Morris himself stated in the first report, of which Deputy Rabbitte asks us to take account, that implicated gardaí should not lose their pension entitlements. In Mr. Justice Morris's opinion, that would have serious implications for the future investigation.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The two gardaí were not in the first report.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach should be permitted to speak without interruption.

Michael Finneran (Longford-Roscommon, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte had his chance.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The second report will be debated in the House on Friday. However, Mr. Justice Morris made it absolutely clear in the first report that he believes — I am sure the same will apply to the second report and perhaps also the third report — that to take away pension rights from people who are implicated——

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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This is a diversion. I am sorry that I mentioned it.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am answering the Deputy's question.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is a complete diversion.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy raised the pension issue and will not——

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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No, I raised the question as to whether the Bill will be reviewed.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will return to the Deputy's other question in a minute. On the issue of pensions, Mr. Justice Morris stated that people should hold on to their pensions as to do otherwise would have serious implications for the future investigation of disciplinary matters in the force.

Since the first report was published last year, the Minister has reviewed the Bill. His amendments now take into account what the Minister and his Department believe would normally happen. They consider that the best way to try to improve the force's accountability and to have an inspectorate to deal with the force. Perhaps the amendment the Minister proposes to introduce on Committee Stage should not be necessary but it is necessary that gardaí are obliged to account for themselves.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is flimflamming. He is filibustering. What is the answer to the question? Will the Bill be reviewed?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach should be permitted to speak without interruptions.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Bill has been reviewed for the past year. The Garda Complaints Act has been around——

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The report was published last week.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte has had his opportunity.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The first report was published last year.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Government would not agree to a debate.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte should permit the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There will be a debate in this House next Friday. However, the first report came out last year and the Minister has taken full account of these issues——

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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One recommendation.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——and has taken account of the ombudsman and the inspectorate and a series of other amendments that will be debated in this House before the end of this session.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach support the failure of his Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to take any effective action on foot of the Morris tribunal reports? Does the Taoiseach stand over the situation, which I can only describe as adding insult to injury, where we see corrupt gardaí not being at the very least, suspended pending prosecution, but being allowed to resign, perhaps even being invited to do so and being transferred to other divisions including to Garda headquarters? Does the Taoiseach agree that it is a scandal that no one has been held to account for the Garda ill-treatment of both the McBrearty and McConnell families and other families in County Donegal and elsewhere? Does the Taoiseach agree that it is a scandal the assassination of Councillor Eddie Fullerton has been wilfully ignored by his Minister who only reluctantly agreed to allow an examination of the Garda's own investigation and has now advised this House that he will not allow the findings enter the public arena? Does the Taoiseach not believe that, with all the evidence pertaining to collusion in the death of Councillor Fullerton and the fact that he was a public

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Disciplinary implications for members below the rank of superintendent are being examined by the Commissioner, so it is not the case that there is no disciplinary action. As I said, the transfer of members from Donegal is a completely separate matter from any disciplinary action that might be taken. This does not rule out that the Director of Public Prosecutions may decide to bring a prosecution against any member. The information in the Morris report is available to the DPP who is totally independent of the Minister. It would be inappropriate for the Minister to have any influence over the DPP in these matters. He has no say whatever in bringing prosecutions on these issues. It is incorrect to in any way blame the Minister on these issues.

As I said, last year there were dismissals and resignations from the force when the first report came out. Following the recent report, two members at superintendent level have indicated that they will retire. The Garda Commissioner said that not only will he shortly bring forward disciplinary actions but he will also outline a comprehensive package of management reforms. None of those issues is being ignored.

On the late Councillor Eddie Fullerton from Buncrana, the family has asked the Department to look at the case and I am aware of its long-held views on issues of collusion. I have no doubt those matters will be considered by the Minister.

I repeat that issues of accountability and of appointing an ombudsman were considered at length following the first report as were the options in respect of a complaints procedure. The Government considered all the options and came down in favour of a three-person ombudsman commission because with police ombudsman institutions there does not have to be a single person in charge and the complaints systems in other states have commissions with more than one person sitting on them — there are nine commissioners in the UK. Having a three-person commission, therefore, increases the chances of having an internal debate, which is welcome, before a decision is taken on matters of complaint. This is a considerable strengthening of the process that is there. It will certainly help matters in the future. The House should, and will, support these proposals.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach's defence of the Minister will rest very uncomfortably with many on the Government backbenches who have clearly flexed themselves in regard to the Minister's recent kite-flying vis-À-vis café bars. I am sure they feel the same disdain in regard to much of what the Minister says, many of them certainly on his utterances on asylum seekers because those utterances have clearly fuelled bigotry and racism. Does the Taoiseach agree with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's statement on last night's "Questions & Answers" programme that immigration is all about money? Does he not agree it is all about people?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The question is about the Morris tribunal and it is not appropriate to raise a second matter.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If it has not been apparent, my question is about the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I have covered a number of issues in regard to this gentleman's portfolio and area of responsibility. Is the Taoiseach not also concerned about the deportation of children who are Irish citizens? What will happen when these children come of age——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That question does not arise. The question is about the Morris tribunal.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry, the question is not about the Morris tribunal.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy cannot raise other matters.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am the author of the question during Leaders' Questions, a Cheann Comhairle, not you, and it is my prerogative to ask a question of my choice.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is clear under Standing Orders that one topical issue may be raised.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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One topical issue is the conduct and suitability of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the fact that the evidence I have highlighted demonstrates he is clearly unfit for that office. Will it not be the case that we will see young Irish-born citizens taking cases against this State and a future Government will clearly have to face the consequences of the Minister's actions? How does the Taoiseach explain the Minister's absence during the course of the entire Disability Bill through the House? He was not even here to participate in a Bill that bore his name——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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——nor did he vote.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Your time has concluded.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am concluding.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy cannot go over different topical issues.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the same issue.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are not.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister did not even vote on a Bill that bore his name.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy raised a question on the Morris tribunal.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is not about resignation, it is time the Taoiseach had the courage to dismiss him.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Do not try to defend the Minister, a Cheann Comhairle, he is not worthy of it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It should be put to a vote at the parliamentary party meeting.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Many questions were asked and I will give a short answer.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should answer the last question.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is fairly obvious that Deputy Ó Caoláin does not like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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He has a lot of company. The Taoiseach should look over his shoulder.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I believe that the Minister acted properly in regard to all the matters raised and I fully support him.