Dáil debates

Thursday, 2 June 2005

10:30 am

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. a12, Maritime Safety Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Financial Resolution; No. 12, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing a European small claims procedure — back from committee; No. 13, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on certain aspects of mediation in civil and commercial matters — back from committee; No. 14, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Waste Management (Electrical and Electronic Equipment) Regulations 2005 — back from committee; No. 23, Criminal Justice Bill 2004 — Second Stage (resumed); No. 22, Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill 2004 — Second Stage (resumed); No. 24, Land Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Second Stage (resumed); and No. 25, statements on suicide, to be taken not later than 1.30 p.m. and the order shall not resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. a12, 12, 13 and 14 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 25 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 14 June 2005.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. a12, 12, 13 and 14 agreed?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have no report in respect of No. 14, the proposed approval by the Dáil of the Waste (Electrical and Electronic Equipment) Regulations 2005, back from committee. I understand there was no discussion of any consequence at that committee on Tuesday and the practical consequences of dealing with the disposal of every piece of electronic equipment in the country will cause major problems. I do not agree to this item being taken without debate. There was no debate of any relevance on Tuesday at this meeting and there are serious questions that must be answered from a practical perspective which the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will fully understand in terms of the interpretation of the directive from local authority disposal points and disposal points provided by retailers. I ask that a debate of some time on this directive be held in the House. I object to it being passed without debate.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On the same subject, I was at the committee on Tuesday when this matter was discussed. Many of the questions asked were not replied to satisfactorily. These regulations propose to deal with the issue of waste of electronic goods and provide for an arrangement whereby consumers can give back old electronic and electrical equipment in disuse. The idea behind the EU directive was that responsibility would be on the producer but it appears that in these regulations the Government is shifting responsibility on to the retailers. It is doing so in a way that will cause considerable confusion publicly and will not necessarily assist the consumer. I agree with Deputy Kenny that these regulations require debate in the House. The matter was not satisfactorily concluded at the committee.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Do the regulations include electronic voting machines?

Photo of John GormleyJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Green Party cannot accept this without debate. The report is inadequate, it is one paragraph long. It needs to be debated on the floor of the House. In light of the latest judgment from the European Courts it is clear that, once again, our appalling record on the environment has been exposed. We are the environmental delinquents of Europe and the only response from the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is to fast track incinerators. We need a more comprehensive response and that is why we will not accept this.

Photo of Arthur MorganArthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I too object to this being taken without discussion. I missed some of the committee meeting on 31 May as I had a request to make in the Dáil under Standing Order 31. It is clear there is not enough discussion on this matter. This item has the potential to deal comprehensively with the principle that the "polluter pays", placing the responsibility where it belongs, on the manufacturer who creates the pollution in the first instance. The discussions at the committee were inconclusive and further discussion is required.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government considered this motion last Tuesday. A division took place and the motion was passed that the regulations be referred back to the Dáil and Seanad with no further debate. The regulations provide the enabling framework for the transposition and implementation of two landmark EU directives on waste electrical and electronic equipment and on the restriction of hazardous substances in electrical equipment. The directive will come into operation on 13 August next so there is a tight timeline for finalising detailed regulations that need to be prepared.

The directive is a producer responsibility initiative. It is not correct to say the Minister's intention is to pass on responsibility to the consumer. Producers will be responsible for the processing, recycling and disposal of equipment once it has been collected. Retailers will be required to offer one-for-one take-back of equipment similar to that which they are selling. Discussions are taking place between representative groups of producers and retailers on some aspects of the operation of the system. The Minister's concern is to implement the directives in a way that reflects the greatest possible consensus among various stakeholders on what will work most effectively and equitably. This matter has to be dealt with so the detailed regulations can be brought forward to implement the directive.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Here is more electronic equipment that has gone wrong.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. a12, 12, 13 and 14 be agreed to."

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 62 (Michael Ahern, Noel Ahern, Barry Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Johnny Brady, Martin Brady, John Browne, Joe Callanan, Ivor Callely, Pat Carey, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Michael J Collins, Beverley Flynn, Mary Coughlan, Brian Cowen, John Cregan, Martin Cullen, Noel Davern, Síle de Valera, Tony Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, John Ellis, Michael Finneran, Dermot Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Jim Glennon, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Joe Jacob, Billy Kelleher, Peter Kelly, Séamus Kirk, Tom Kitt, Brian Lenihan Jnr, Conor Lenihan, Tom McEllistrim, John McGuinness, John Moloney, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Charlie O'Connor, Noel O'Flynn, Ned O'Keeffe, Fiona O'Malley, Tim O'Malley, Tom Parlon, Peter Power, Seán Power, Dick Roche, Mae Sexton, Brendan Smith, Michael Smith, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Joe Walsh, Ollie Wilkinson, Michael Woods)

Against the motion: 47 (Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Joe Costello, Jerry Cowley, Seymour Crawford, Seán Crowe, Ciarán Cuffe, Bernard Durkan, Martin Ferris, Eamon Gilmore, John Gormley, Tony Gregory, Marian Harkin, Séamus Healy, Joe Higgins, Michael D Higgins, Phil Hogan, Brendan Howlin, Paul Kehoe, Enda Kenny, Finian McGrath, Paul McGrath, Paddy McHugh, Liz McManus, Gay Mitchell, Olivia Mitchell, Arthur Morgan, Catherine Murphy, Michael Noonan, Fergus O'Dowd, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Séamus Pattison, John Perry, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, Michael Ring, Eamon Ryan, Emmet Stagg, Billy Timmins, Liam Twomey, Mary Upton, Jack Wall)

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with No. 25, statements on suicide, agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 14 June 2005, agreed to?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is not agreed. Only two fifths of the Cabinet members are present. The Taoiseach is absent, as is the Tánaiste and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. As of this morning, we have no chief executive-designate of the Health Service Executive. As Oscar Wilde said in another context, to lose one is bad, but to lose two is careless. We need a debate on this matter, as well as a debate on the issues arising from the report on nursing homes. We also need to have a debate on the findings of the Morris tribunal. I cannot agree that Dáil Éireann should rise today until 14 June and I object to the business of the House being dealt with in this fashion.

11:00 am

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I also oppose the proposal for the adjournment of the House. There is a number of compelling matters that ought to detain the House next week. They include the news that the latest chief executive-designate of the Health Service Executive will not now take up the post, given the difficulties in the health service. To put it at its mildest, this is something that ought to be debated in the House. In addition, we must return to the nursing homes issue. The Minister for Finance will recall that in 1990 we had no difficulty in recalling the Dáil in mid-summer to take out a section of the Companies Bill. The measure was put through the House in one day to rescue Mr. Larry Goodman and his meat factories at that time.

We currently have a Bill before the House, a section of which would deal with the issue of an independent inspectorate for nursing homes. If that matter cannot be taken next week, it must be taken before the House rises for the summer recess.

Deputy Kenny referred to the Morris tribunal report. All of us in this House should hang our heads in shame because the Government has never provided time to debate in the House the tribunal's first report. There is no excuse for the House rising next week. It can meet as normal on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday if necessary to discuss an issue so fundamental for our democracy. I oppose the proposal.

Photo of John GormleyJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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We have an unprecedented crisis in the European Union because of the comprehensive rejection of the EU constitution by the French and Dutch people. We have major problems in our nursing homes and hospitals. We have the exposure of corruption and mismanagement in the second Morris report. The response of the Government to all this is to go on holidays and to take its Cabinet roadshow to Cork. In three weeks' time we are off on holidays again.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should speak for himself.

Photo of John GormleyJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Dáil will be in recess and we are not being productive in this House.

Photo of Conor LenihanConor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should speak for himself.

Photo of John GormleyJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Members on the other side of the House are detached from the concerns of ordinary people and from reality.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Arrogance.

Photo of John GormleyJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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It is irresponsible. I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business that the Dáil meet next Wednesday, 8 June.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The matters referred to will be dealt with in the House. Arrangements have been made for this year's session to be longer than last year's. Arrangements have been in place for some time in the House to use the week of the June bank holiday for the purposes of ensuring that the Dáil does not meet in plenary session on that day, but all the issues raised by the party leaders this morning will be dealt with, and need to be dealt with.

The legislation regarding an inspectorate for public and private nursing homes will be ready later this year. The new framework will include more clarity on standards and more rights for patients and families, and will ensure that nursing homes meet modern-day standards with regard to health, safety and employment.

Photo of Liz McManusLiz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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In the meantime, who will protect the elderly?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the Morris tribunal report, initial statements will be made by party leaders and the matter will be debated in full in the House.

Photo of Dan NevilleDan Neville (Limerick West, Fine Gael)
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What about the Health Service Executive?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gormley has proposed that we meet on Wednesday next and therefore that the words "Tuesday, 14 June 2005" be deleted and replaced with "Wednesday, 8 June 2005".

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 55 (Michael Ahern, Noel Ahern, Barry Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Johnny Brady, Martin Brady, John Browne, Joe Callanan, Pat Carey, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Michael J Collins, Beverley Flynn, Mary Coughlan, Brian Cowen, John Cregan, Martin Cullen, Noel Davern, Síle de Valera, Tony Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, John Ellis, Michael Finneran, Dermot Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Jim Glennon, Seán Haughey, Máire Hoctor, Joe Jacob, Billy Kelleher, Peter Kelly, Séamus Kirk, Tom Kitt, Brian Lenihan Jnr, Tom McEllistrim, John McGuinness, John Moloney, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Charlie O'Connor, Noel O'Flynn, Ned O'Keeffe, Fiona O'Malley, Tim O'Malley, Peter Power, Dick Roche, Brendan Smith, Michael Smith, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Ollie Wilkinson, Michael Woods)

Against the motion: 45 (Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Tommy Broughan, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Joe Costello, Jerry Cowley, Seán Crowe, Ciarán Cuffe, Bernard Durkan, Martin Ferris, Eamon Gilmore, John Gormley, Tony Gregory, Marian Harkin, Séamus Healy, Joe Higgins, Michael D Higgins, Brendan Howlin, Paul Kehoe, Enda Kenny, Finian McGrath, Paul McGrath, Paddy McHugh, Liz McManus, Gay Mitchell, Olivia Mitchell, Arthur Morgan, Catherine Murphy, Gerard Murphy, Jim O'Keeffe, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Séamus Pattison, John Perry, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, Michael Ring, Eamon Ryan, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Liam Twomey, Mary Upton, Jack Wall)

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Boyle and Kehoe.

Question declared carried.

Amendment declared lost.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil be agreed to", put and declared carried.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is now proposed to allow the Minister for Finance and the leaders of the four parties in Opposition to make brief comments on the Morris tribunal report.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The second report of the Morris tribunal reveals a very disturbing and shocking catalogue of events in the Donegal division of the Garda Síochána some eight years ago. In short, the report finds that there was a rush to judgment on the part of the Garda Síochána, but that there were also elements within the Garda who set out to frame Frank McBrearty junior and Mark McConnell for murder. While the report is reluctant to make a finding that the investigation was corrupt in its leadership, it finds that it was prejudiced and negligent in the highest degree.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government take the most serious view of this report and consider that both it and the first report should be urgently discussed in both this House and the Seanad. The Whips are now arranging this.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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That is a change.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me be clear, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government accept the findings of the report and will act on them. Last year, following the publication of the first report of the Morris tribunal, the Government dismissed a Garda superintendent. Another superintendent and a chief superintendent retired. The Garda Commissioner dismissed a number of members of garda rank. As the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said yesterday, the Government and the commissioner will now urgently consider the implications of the findings of this report for individuals.

As the Minister also made clear, the response to this report must go far beyond the implications for individual members. Substantial reform is required and that is what is before this House in the Garda Síochána Bill, which I am glad to see passed Committee Stage last night. The Bill provides for the establishment of the Garda Síochána ombudsman commission to independently investigate complaints against members of the force. It also establishes a Garda Síochána inspectorate to examine and report on the effectiveness and efficiency of the force on an ongoing basis, a provision was introduced to the Bill in response to the first report of the Morris tribunal.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform strongly believes the establishment of these two bodies, together with the general reform in the Bill of the Garda Síochána and its relationship with Government, will transform the system of accountability and oversight of the force. He has also appointed a committee, chaired by Senator Maurice Hayes, to oversee the implementation of the Bill as soon as it is enacted. He will also bring forward an amendment to the Bill to require gardaí to account for their actions as members of the force. This new duty has been identified as vital by the tribunal and the proposed amendment to the Garda Bill will be a key response to its findings and recommendations. The Garda Commissioner will shortly outline a comprehensive package of management reform within the Garda Síochána in response to the first report of the tribunal.

As the Minister said clearly yesterday on publishing this report, we have all been let down badly by the behaviour of a number of gardaí of different ranks in Donegal. The majority of men and women in the Garda Síochána, who have given and continue to give loyal and dedicated service to the State, will be particularly shocked and disappointed. The Minister also pointed out that it was only last week that we were reminded again of the dangers gardaí face in trying to protect the community, a situation in stark contrast to what is contained in this report from Mr. Justice Morris.

It is difficult to overstate the disservice done to the ordinary decent members of the Garda Síochána by the shocking misconduct outlined in this report. The House will have the opportunity later this month to have a full debate on it and the Minister will outline his comprehensive response to this deeply troubling report.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I compliment Mr. Justice Morris on his clear and lucid report which is outstanding in the clarity of its language and the directness of its findings. This second report raises the most serious questions. I welcome the fact that there will be a full debate in the Dáil and Seanad and I expect that debate will be open-ended.

The second report raises fundamental issues of the most serious import at every level. At the level of individual gardaí who are criticised in the report, they must be dealt with immediately by due process. There are serious systems issues raised about the operation of gardaí at senior level and about the relationship between the Garda and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

There are also serious issues raised about the political responses to the issues dealt with in these two reports, not least of which is a requirement of the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, and the current Minister, Deputy McDowell, who in his capacity as Attorney General advised the then Government on every occasion that there was no need for a public inquiry into these matters, to explain their response. The Government has a clear duty to respond quickly, properly and truthfully in respect of these matters. We also need statements from Deputies O'Donoghue and McDowell as to their reasons for setting their face against an inquiry. That should include reasons no legal aid was given to the McBrearty family, who, along with others, are vindicated by the clarity of the findings of the Morris tribunal.

It is only fair to recognise that former Deputy, now Senator Jim Higgins MEP, and Deputy Howlin were two people who stood up firmly against a ferocious onslaught for an inquiry into this matter. Both of them deserve the credit of the people. We might not be discussing this but for their stubbornness to pursue the truth and to see it is brought forward.

Fine Gael believes in a strong, effective and accountable Garda Síochána. We believe the integrity of the force should be beyond question and that it should have the trust of the people. Sadly, this report diminishes all those who have given outstanding service in terms of service to the country and public duty.

We have supported the passage of the Garda Bill through the House in order to speed up the delivery of an independent and effective complaints system. It remains to be seen whether what passed through Committee Stage last evening is a vehicle of sufficient authority to deal with situations like this. I look forward to comprehensive debate in the House. Out of it, I hope the sea change that should come about, in terms of structures and structural management within the Garda and clarity of response and truth from Government, will see to it that integrity is restored to the only force we have to protect the citizen from intrusion by vandals, thuggery and whatever else.

It is a shame that at the very highest level of where people expect absolute security and integrity, that the Morris report points clearly at a rottenness right at its core.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The former President of the High Court, Mr. Justice Morris, deserves the commendation and applause of the House. He probably despairs of the Legislature, however, given its response to his first report. The Minister for Finance told the House that the Government takes a most serious view of this second report and will act on it. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said the exact same thing about the first report, but he did not act on it. I will not say that the Minister, Deputy Cowen, does not understand this matter, but it appears that it is not understood. It is not a matter of disciplining a few gardaí— that is not the issue.

It is important to mention that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who was not available for whatever reason to answer hard questions from a very respected broadcaster on "Morning Ireland" this morning, is usually happy to make himself available to Pat Kenny for a cosy fireside lecture to the nation. When efforts were made in this House to establish the tribunal now known as the Morris tribunal, Deputy McDowell opposed it tooth and nail. The legal representatives of the McBrearty family had made clear to him and to the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, what was going on in County Donegal. The current and previous Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform resisted the establishment of the tribunal.

Contrary to the suggestion of the Minister for Finance, the Garda Síochána Bill, which is currently before the House, does not amount to substantial reform. The Minister, Deputy Cowen, has suggested that it is a significant reform that gardaí on duty will be required under the Bill to account for their actions, but nothing could be further from the truth. Members of the House should repeat publicly in this Chamber, in preparation for the full debate on this matter which we will have in due course, what they are saying in private.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The performance of the Garda Síochána is central to our democracy. It is clear that what has happened in County Donegal is a scandal that implicates the gardaí who were directly involved. However, it is also an indictment of the appropriateness in the 21st century of the structures which govern the force. The Government is not addressing that at all. The notion of a Garda authority was outlined in the Labour Party's proposals in this regard, which were published by my colleague, Deputy Howlin, five years ago. That notion was entirely different to the Garda Síochána Bill's pandering to a Garda inspectorate. The Garda authority, as proposed by Deputy Howlin, would be separate from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It would set a plan for policing, monitor standards and have a supervisory function. It would assess the effectiveness and efficiency of policing in this State in its annual report. That is absolutely central to our society.

The former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, refused to extend the purview of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in this regard. It was excised from the terms of reference. It is plain from the quick glance I have had at the Morris report that Mr. Justice Morris is not just talking about a little local difficulty in County Donegal — it is far more serious than that. I have great respect for the Garda Commissioner, Noel Conroy, but I cannot understand why he said, as recently as three weeks ago, that the inquiry into the death of Mr. Richie Barron was thorough and efficient. The House should be profoundly disturbed by remarks of that nature.

It is not too late to take advantage of the opportunity, presented by the Garda Síochána Bill, to take action in this regard. We need a commitment from the Government that it will implement all the recommendations of the Morris report. The Minister for the media took full credit yesterday for Mr. Justice Morris's report, even though he opposed the establishment of the tribunal. He could have imported the recommendations of the first Morris report into the Garda Síochána Bill, but he did not do so. As I said last week in Tralee, before the second Morris report was published, we need an independent commission on policing.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Like the Patten commission.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Such a commission should be charged with going up and down the country, to community halls etc., to take evidence from ordinary law-abiding citizens about the efficacy, efficiency, appropriateness and responsiveness of policing in today's world. Mr. Chris Patten was able to complete his work in 18 months. Those of us who have spoken with Mr. Hugh Orde in recent times about developments in policing in Northern Ireland have learned a lesson about what might happen in this jurisdiction. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has not adopted the Nuala O'Loan ombudsman precedent. The Garda Síochána Bill does not provide for a Garda authority. It is plain that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has captured the Minister, Deputy McDowell, despite all his talk and the fawning of some members of the media who are in thrall to him.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's more detailed comments might be more appropriate when the debate promised by the Minister for Finance takes place. I ask him to make a brief comment this morning. We have already spent some time on this matter.

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputies should be allowed to speak about the McBrearty family and the tribunal today.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot have a wholesale debate.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is the Ceann Comhairle trying to tell me that I should stop, or is he trying to write my future scripts for me?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will appreciate that the Chair, in order to facilitate Deputies, has allowed brief statements by the Minister and each of the four Opposition parties this morning.

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The matter will be discussed on the radio today.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot have a full-scale debate. The Chair set Standing Orders aside to facilitate Members in the House. Deputy Rabbitte should see it in that spirit.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Spirit is right.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not know why it is necessary for Deputy Rabbitte to engage in confrontation with the Chair by suggesting that it is trying to impose some restriction on him. The Chair is not trying to do so.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I do not know why the Ceann Comhairle thought it necessary to interrupt my few remarks. I ask him not to see his decision to allow this debate as a facilitation of Members. This debate is central to our democracy.

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is correct.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The reality is that the Chair facilitated Members.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I would rather if the Ceann Comhairle saw his decision to allow this debate as a reflection of the necessity for the House to do justice to the serious report that was expeditiously produced by Mr. Justice Morris.

Nothing in the new Garda Síochána Bill will address the core issue, which is that unaccountable power is a very dangerous thing. That the Bill is before the House at present gives the Government and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform an opportunity to make changes. I ask the Minister to return to the House with proposals that do justice to Mr. Justice Morris's second report and take on board his recommendations. The Government should accept the need for a root and branch investigation of policing by establishing an independent policing commission. If we follow the methodology of Mr. Patten, we will know how long it will take. Certain people are willing to undertake the task of listening to ordinary citizens who, like the overwhelming majority of Members of the House, are entirely disposed to supporting the Garda.

Mr. Justice Morris concluded his report by saying that terrible damage has been done to the Barron and McBrearty families and others. The House should be alarmed by the notion that a number of people could be in prison for a murder that never happened. Deputy Howlin's case, which relates to the protection of a whistleblower, is still before the Supreme Court. The case is still pending in the wake of the two Morris reports. The work of Deputy Howlin and Senator Higgins led to the establishment of the tribunal in the first instance. Mr. Justice Morris states at the end of his report that although serious damage has been done to the Barron and McBrearty families, the greatest damage has been done to conscientious members of the Garda Síochána.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Gardaí who take pride in the uniform and do the job to the best of their ability have been diminished by what went on in County Donegal. This Legislature is not addressing that. The Government resisted the attempts of Deputy Costello and others to ensure that the first Morris report was debated in this Chamber.

Photo of John GormleyJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I join other Members in paying tribute to Mr. Justice Morris on his fine second report, which reveals a litany of negligence, corruption, lies, deceit, cover-ups and appalling mismanagement. It exonerates Mr. McBrearty and Mr. McConnell and indicates that they were ruthlessly and viciously framed by the Garda. Their lives were made a hell. Were it not for the tenacity of Mr. McBrearty, Deputy Howlin and Senator Jim Higgins, this matter would not have come to light. I pay tribute to the Members of the Opposition for acting in the way they did.

Mr. McBrearty came to our conference this year. After he spoke, he received a standing ovation. It was clear that this was a man who believed in his cause and believed in truth and justice. He was willing to pursue that cause until the very end. He is a very fine individual of whom this country should be proud. He is an ordinary person who battled against the odds and made great progress. He has not yet won totally, but he has been totally vindicated. However, this matter has a long way to go.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as Attorney General tried to stall Mr. McBrearty's quest for justice for as long as he could. The Minister has been dragged kicking and screaming to the altar of justice by Mr. McBrearty and others.

Let us have the truth because, in a sense, the spin has worked. The Minister spoke yesterday as if he were the person who had pursued justice. There may be people who believe this, but let us put the record straight. This Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has behaved disgracefully. He has not acceded to the reasonable requests of the McBrearty family. He has let them down, so much so that they have called for his resignation. However, he can no longer procrastinate. What will be done? Will there be resignations and sackings from the Garda Síochána? Will we sit on this? Will the recommendations be implemented immediately or will there be a stalling process?

In light of this damning report, the Green Party has called for a proper independent body to investigate fully complaints against the Garda. This would be along the lines of what has been established under Nuala O'Loan in Northern Ireland. which has worked effectively. The Minister resisted the proposal, yet what we heard from him this morning is that he will put forward a sticking plaster proposal by amending the Garda Síochána Bill. This does not go far enough. The Green Party and other parties in this House pushed for this and we will continue to push for proper accountability within the Garda Síochána. Root and branch reform of the Garda Síochána is required. We are not getting root and branch reform because the Minister is not a reforming Minister. He is the Minister for spin who does not deliver. We know from the figures given last week that crime is increasing. He has successfully spun his way throughout his Ministry and some people appear to believe he is doing a good job. I do not believe he is doing a good job. He is doing a very bad job for this country.

The Green Party will continue to campaign for proper accountability and standards within the Garda Síochána. We hope the Government will listen to what we are saying at this stage. It is the second damning report from Mr. Justice Morris and it cannot be ignored.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
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Like previous speakers, I welcome the second report of the Morris tribunal. The belief that what happened in Donegal was as a result of a small number of gardaí effectively being out of control is something that needs to be examined. If that were the case, one would assume there was never a heavy gang in the State. While a prisoner in Portlaoise Prison in the 1970s, I witnessed at first hand Nicky Kelly, a colleague of Deputy Rabbitte, being helped up the stairs after being brutally assaulted and beaten by members of the special branch. Not one member of this heavy gang was held accountable for their brutal actions.

This also calls into question the sacrosanct evidence accepted by the Special Criminal Court, where the word of a special branch man as against a defendant is taken as absolute, even to the extent that verbal admission, regardless of how it is extracted, is accepted as evidence to secure convictions. As elected representatives, we must ensure that what took place in Donegal and what is taking place in many other areas does not happen again. Since becoming a Member of this House, I have been trying to get the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to examine the planting of a gun in a man's car, but to no avail. The gun was subsequently destroyed on the orders of the Minister. This speaks volumes about this man who opposed the setting up of this inquiry. He has resisted it from the beginning. As Deputy Gormley said, he is now saying he delivered on this.

We must also examine the convictions secured on evidence produced by the senior gardaí mentioned in this report. Where do the victims stand in all of this? It is likely that many innocent people in many counties were convicted on verbal admissions or signed statements, regardless of how they were extracted. I attended meetings with Joe Costello in the 1970s and 1980s when there was an attempt to raise this issue, but the State stopped it. I recall the Fianna Fáil Party in Opposition speaking out against the heavy gang, but when it went into Government it did nothing about it.

There are many issues to be examined in this regard. I suggest that the Morris tribunal should include in its terms of reference the collusion in the assassination of Donegal county councillor, Eddie Fullerton. He was shot dead in his home and nothing has been done about it. The investigation has been hindered because elements in control of the British forces were involved in the case. We must also examine the use of informers — people who would sell their soul for money. These people were being used without any accountability.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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As I pointed out to Deputy Rabbitte, a brief comment is in order this morning on the Morris tribunal report and a more detailed comment may be made in the debate which has been promised in coming weeks.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, I would be failing in my responsibility as a public representative if I did not bring to the notice of the House today the use of Garda informants in the Donegal matter, which was very evident in the report.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am not saying the Deputy cannot raise the matter. I am saying that, it is now 11.40 p.m. and the Chair is facilitating a brief comment on the second report of the Morris tribunal. More detailed comment will be allowed in the debate on the report which has been promised in coming weeks.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the fact that this issue will be debated. The debate must take into account all the aspects I have raised, including issues that were hidden by this House and the State in the past. People were never held accountable for the wrongs and injustices they perpetrated against victims inside Garda barracks. Members of the special branch were given the freedom to do what they wished. I look forward to the debate to which I will contribute in due course.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When is it proposed to make a statement on the fact that Professor Brendan Drumm will not take up the post as chief executive officer of the Health Service Executive?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business. The Deputy should raise an appropriate issue.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are there proposals to amend the Freedom of Information Acts so that reports of nursing home inspectors can be made available on the Internet free of charge to members of the public? Currently, they must apply under the Act and pay a fee. Will the reports be made available free of charge?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand no legislation is promised in that area.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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However, one must pay to obtain reports under the Freedom of Information Acts. They should be available free of charge.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Does the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children intend to make a statement about the latest appointee to the chief executive of the HSE not to take up the post?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not aware of this issue, although I heard some breaking news on the 10 a.m. news bulletin. The HSE is meeting this afternoon. We must await the outcome of the meeting before we can make further comment.

Deputy Gormley rose.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is 11.40 a.m. I will call the Deputy first the next day the House sits.

Photo of John GormleyJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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That is discrimination. The Ceann Comhairle said I would be called first the next day and I will take him up on that.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The House must move on with its business.