Dáil debates

Wednesday, 18 May 2005

Priority Questions.

Register of Electors.

1:00 pm

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Question 78: To ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government if he will consider the introduction of a system of official identification linked, for example, to personal public service numbers which all voters would be required to produce when voting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16539/05]

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Significant measures are already in place with regard to voter identification and the prevention of personation. The returning officer or the presiding officer may, of his or her own volition, or if required by a personation agent, request any person applying for a ballot paper to produce a specified identification document. The range of documents includes a passport, a driving licence, an employee identity card and a student identity card. If a person fails to produce a required document or if the returning officer or the presiding officer is not satisfied that the person is the person to whom the document relates, the person is not permitted to vote.

Returning officers or presiding officers may also, or if requested by a personation agent, put certain questions or administer an oath or affirmation to persons applying for a ballot paper. Electoral law also sets out a range of offences and penalties regarding personation, including a new offence provided for under the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2004 for the unlawful possession or use of a polling information card.

Prevention of personation relies on the deterrent effect of sanctions applicable for committing an offence and on the vigilance of polling staff and personation agents in the polling station. My Department provides on an ongoing basis comprehensive guidance documentation to returning officers and presiding officers which contains detailed advice on countering personation, including a request that at least 25% of voters be asked to produce an identity document.

I am concerned to ensure that the arrangements in place regarding these issues are as flexible as possible while maintaining the security and integrity of the electoral process. I will continue to keep under review current practice, including the scope for further improvements.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I greatly regret that this issue is not being taken seriously. Does the Minister of State accept that to get even a resident's parking permit, one must turn up with photographic ID, insurance certificates and utility bills addressed to one's home because the relevant officials want to be sure the person presenting himself or herself is the person he or she claims to be? People have been elected to this House by a margin of only four votes, yet in electing Deputies there is no obligatory identification requirement unless one is challenged. As the Minister of State said, a minimum of 25% of those voting are challenged, so that up to 75% are not challenged.

Does the Minister of State accept that there are organisations involved in elections in this country which can apparently clean out a bank and get away with it? There are individuals involved in elections in this country who have been involved in large-scale planning corruption. Within the present system, significant organised personation would therefore be child's play to these people.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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That is the bottom line. I have been asking the same question since I was elected to this House 23 years ago. I have had to report and deal with organised personation in my constituency, not by any of the parties to which I have obliquely referred, but by a more respectable party. I will not go into detail, but the matter received a good deal of coverage at the time.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It happened in Dublin North-Central too. The Minister of State knows well those involved.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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This issue deserves to be taken seriously but that is not happening.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It happened with Pat O'Connor.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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We should not joke about the matter. This is a serious issue. We elect Governments in this manner. Many individuals are elected by a margin of a handful of votes. This is a significant issue for the future of our democratic process. I have always questioned the reluctance of Fianna Fáil in particular to respond to this issue.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Deputy is making a statement. He should confine himself to a question.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister of State should visit Dublin North-Central. He can see the situation there at first hand any time. He knows that.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I hope the two questions I asked are dealt with. Why is there a reluctance to grasp this issue? If it is so important and Governments can be elected in this way, why are we still given the same prepared script every year? Why not recognise the importance of this issue and put in place the basic requirements which even a person seeking a residential parking permit must fulfil when claiming to be an individual from a particular address?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We all take this matter seriously. Deputy Gregory should consider the changes brought into effect since 2002. Section 111 of the Electoral Act 1992 has been updated. There has been a change in the electoral amendment regulations of 2004. We do not regard passports, driving licences or employee identity cards as items which can be overlooked by anyone.

Deputy Gregory raised a fundamental issue when he said the system can be subverted. However, it must be asked if there are difficulties pertaining to the PPS system which he suggests be introduced. Northern Ireland operates a PPS identity system similar to ours. One must register and hold a PPS card. Northern Ireland scrapped its electoral register and produced a new register based on the PPS system, but for very good reasons did not introduce it for voting systems.

We must look at the practicalities of our PPS system. I am not saying that we will not look at other avenues to ensure personation does not take place, but if one introduces the PPS system for voting, one must be able to link in to the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

That leads to the next question. What about the Data Protection Act? This is governed by legislation, and to change that, new legislation would have to be introduced into the Dáil. One would then have to talk to the Data Protection Commissioner to see if one was infringing the rights of individuals. One would also have to seek the advice of the Attorney General on all these matters. I am agreeable to examine some of the issues. I cannot foresee a situation whereby one arrives in a polling station and asks someone for PPS identification. The people asking for that would have to have direct access to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which is not practical.

At one time, only 5% of voters were asked for identification. We have now increased that figure to 25%. A few weeks ago, during the elections for Údarás na Gaeltachta, Deputy McCormack said that a particular agent was demanding identification from almost every second person. The Deputy complained about the queues and delays, and at the end of the day, the bureaucracy gone mad.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I did not.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I commend Deputy Gregory on what he is trying to achieve, but there are substantial practical difficulties in getting around this issue.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The parish priest said that everyone knew him but that no-one knew the presiding officer.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Will the Minister respond to the question that was asked rather than his interpretation of it? Will he consider the introduction of a system of official identification? The example I gave was PPS numbers but it does not have to be those. However, it should be a system that will ensure that every voter who turns up to vote is the person he or she claims to be. Will the Minister consider a new system?

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everybody is concerned about probity in the system. I indicated in my reply that we are examining ways of ensuring it. We are certainly examining the registration. I am not sure what can be done at voting level. That is not to give a commitment that we will change the system because it is only a new system. It was in place for the Údarás elections. However, there will be ongoing review.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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If the Minister tries to open a bank account, he will find out what the position is.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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That concludes priority questions.