Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Minister for Transport when a Cabinet decision will be taken on the long-promised second terminal for Dublin Airport; if it is his intention that this facility be privately owned and operated; if he will identify any other European airport at which there are competing terminals; if he will report on the basis on which terminals might compete; and the expected timescale for the commencement and completion of this facility. [15768/05]

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Minister for Transport if he maintains that it is the mandate of the Dublin Airport Authority to provide terminal services at Dublin Airport; if his stated aim is to maximise the use of existing airport lands in the provision of a second terminal at Dublin Airport, the reason his Department sought alternative expressions of interest to build a second terminal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15716/05]

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 4 together.

As the Deputies will be aware, I am currently finalising proposals for the provision of additional terminal capacity at Dublin Airport for consideration by Government very shortly. There are two crucial issues guiding the overall consideration of how terminal capacity will be provided at Dublin Airport. We must ensure the continued overall operational integrity and strategic development of Dublin Airport to meet the needs of current and future users of the airport, both airlines and passengers. It will be necessary to ensure that additional terminal capacity is provided within a reasonable time frame to meet the growth in air traffic. Projected growth in passenger traffic drives the timing and scale of the investment required.

Under existing legislation, the Dublin Airport Authority owns and is responsible for the operation, management and development of Dublin Airport. That is the legislative mandate given to the authority. As policy maker, the State must be satisfied that any future framework for the provision of terminal capacity at the airport, covering both the development and operation of such facilities, ensures the optimum development of Dublin Airport.

Once the Government makes a decision with regard to the provision of capacity, the detailed planning and implementation process will address the issue of the optimum location of the terminal. As a general principle, the objective is to use available assets as effectively as possible in the interests of the efficient operation of Dublin Airport. As regards the timetable for the project, clearly considerable emphasis will be placed on implementing the project as quickly as possible to meet projected passenger growth and the aim is to have new capacity in place in 2009. The request for expressions of interest in August 2002 was a preliminary canvassing of the market to test the level of interest in and feasibility of the independent terminal concept. These expressions were then examined by the Mullarkey panel. The expressions did not identify working examples of independent competing terminals and the panel noted this concept had no corollary elsewhere.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I asked the Minister two specific questions about the proposed second terminal but he has not answered either. Can he point to any example of competing terminals in any European airport? Is there a model we are following?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There is not.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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If this is such a wonderful idea in the eyes of the Cabinet, why do other airports not do this? On the concept of competing terminals, which has not been questioned anywhere in the media during this debate in recent months, what is the basis on which two terminals would compete given that the critical areas of baggage handling and check-in are in the control of airlines and airport charges, a major issue, are controlled by the aviation regulator? Does the Minister accept that the concept of competing airport terminals is flawed? Why is the Cabinet continuing with this nonsensical debate?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I have enunciated clearly my point of view that there are no independent competing terminals. Deputy Shortall is right. The only place this was tried was Montreal.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Toronto.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Toronto. Airport charges in the private facility turned out to be four times higher.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I know, but the Minister is a member of a Government that is suggesting we should have competing terminals.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I am giving the Deputy my perspective as Minister for Transport on the matter, which is what she asked me to do. There are no examples of competing terminals and I am concerned about how this would work when it does not work anywhere else in the world.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why are we toying with the idea?

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is not.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Where it has been tried, it was an abject failure ultimately resulting in the State buying back the terminal at an exorbitant cost.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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We know that but why is the Cabinet considering it?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Views have been expressed and questions have been asked. People are entitled to ask legitimate questions about many issues, with which I have no difficulty. To answer the Deputy's question directly, I spent every day over recent months dealing with this issue. I am on solid ground when I say I agree with the Deputy that I cannot find an example of the type she has enunciated today anywhere in the world. I have stated this publicly.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Then it is a flawed concept.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The type does not exist.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It does not exist.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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All I can do is make a judgment call on the basis that, where it was tried, it was an abject failure with charges being four times higher in the privately run facility and the state eventually buying it back. Of the 13 expressions of interest, one that was submitted by an airline argued against the concept of an independent or competing terminal, only five could be regarded as clear in terms of concept and location and none gave clear answers regarding the financial and economic dimensions of such a proposal. Only one gave a suggestion of a landing charge, which was in the order of €8.50 in comparison with the €4.90 charge in Dublin Airport at present. So much for this type of competition.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am inclined to agree with the Minister about the lack of examples of competing terminals and that this is a step in the dark. Does the Minister agree that it was irresponsible of his Department and his predecessor to search for expressions of interest and to put 13 firms and a 14th firm more recently to the expense of making proposals if there was no intention of pursuing them? I have heard the Minister express the view that his mandate and that of the Dublin Airport Authority is to provide the services of Dublin Airport by maximising the use of its lands. Does the Minister not agree that the constrained nature of the site means that it is too small and that every report that has ever been made on the matter, including the DAA's, states the location will always be inherently inefficient, not just during the construction phase, and will need to be replaced by the famous third terminal even if we do go ahead with this project?

Why is the Minister fixated on this site given all that is wrong with it and the indications from reports that it is not the right site? Has this to do with not upsetting the Taoiseach and, therefore, not upsetting the Taoiseach's unions? Surely the only issue that matters is that Dublin can compete with other capital city airports and not just with terminals within Ireland. This is the type of competition we need and the type we must face up to. What matters is getting the right site that is big enough to give us growth capacity and not who owns it. The DAA must go out and search for business. It has had it so easy as business has come to it but it has made no effort to accommodate this business over the past ten years. Extra capacity is needed if the DAA is to compete with other airports.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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On the information that has been presented to me, I disagree with the Deputy in terms of some of the suggestions that several sites that have been decided on are inadequate. As I said in my answer, it is a matter for the Dublin Airport Authority to choose a site. I have no evidence that suggests the authority, as a new body of fine people, many of whom are experts in this area, will knowingly do something that is not in the interests of Irish aviation, airlines and passengers.

The DAA and the construction of a new second terminal must have the airlines on board as they are the key users of the facility. In a wider context, it is obvious in light of the current configuration of Dublin Airport that there is a tremendous opportunity to create one of the best hubs in Europe in terms of integration between long haul and short haul for the airlines and ease of access between passengers and their baggage, as Deputy Shortall said. These matters are for the DAA to address. Deputy Shortall is correct in that the Commission for Aviation Regulation is the independent arbiter that will dictate the charging regime in the airport. The regulator will not allow for over-capacity but only allow the costs of what is required for capacity. We will plan on this basis. I do not have an issue with planning ten or 15 years beyond what we believe will be required until 2015 but we must have an airport that is for the Irish people.

On behalf of the Government, I am the guardian of the taxpayers' investment in this facility which is one the key strategic pieces of infrastructure in this country. The airport should be in State hands. I have not seen evidence from any other country to suggest otherwise and I want to progress on this basis.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister's acceptance that the very notion of competing terminals is flawed and it is about time someone said this. That not a single person in the media has questioned this concept over the past six months or so is extraordinary. Does the Minister accept that the battle that has been taking place inside the Cabinet in recent months is nonsense given that there is no such thing as successful competing terminals? Why has the Minister not convinced his partners in Government that this is nonsense? Why can we not have a decision to proceed with the much needed expansion of the facility in Dublin Airport? Do the Minister's partners in Government not understand the logic of what we are talking about? Has he not managed to convince them that there is no such thing as successful competing terminals? For the sake of the travelling public, will the Minister get that message across to them and get on with the job of expanding the facilities? The issue at Dublin Airport is capacity, not competition, and the Minister should be able to convince his partners of this.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I feel there is a breakdown in communication between the Minister and the Dublin Airport Authority. He keeps saying it is up to the authority to provide a terminal, which is true, but it is not up to it to provide it on its own lands. That is a where there is a difficulty between the Minister and the Dublin Airport Authority. When the chairman of that authority appeared before a committee he stated clearly that if he were asked to provide a terminal, his responsibility would be to maximise the value of the airport's lands. Therefore, he could only present the airport's lands as the site for the terminal. However, he went on to say that if he wanted the use the optimum lands, the site would not necessarily be the airport's lands. That is the nub of the issue. It is an issue of the site having adequate capacity. I realise that the regulator will not give approval for an increase in landing charges beyond what is required at present, but at least we must have a terminal which we can improve in the future.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I do not disagree with that view. In response to Deputy Shortall's remarks, there has been considerable misrepresentation in this debate. People are entitled to ask legitimate questions, but the word "competition" and "being competitive" have been completely mixed up and presented as meaning the same thing, but they do not.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister should tell his partners in Government that.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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What we want is a competitive, efficient, well run, well managed——

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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That is for what the unions have been fighting for years.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——airport for the benefit of our people, namely——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It is not us but the Progressive Democrats that the Minister needs to convince.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Order, please.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——the customers, passengers and the airlines using the airport. If people want to ask questions, they have every right to do so——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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But not to hold up the decision.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——to come up with an optimum solution.

In regard to what Deputy Olivia Mitchell said, there is no disagreement on that. I want the optimum result at Dublin Airport in terms of the terminal. Practically all the airlines agree on what the site should be for much greater reasons than simply putting in place a piece of infrastructure. That is what I have been trying to say for the past few months.

I am aware of what airlines have been saying to the Dublin Airport Authority. Everybody is suddenly thinking outside the box. They are taking account of the bigger picture in terms of what they can get in benefit from the right decision being made on the terminal. They are also taking account of how they can increase the traffic, improve operations and marry the clearly tremendous opportunities in short-haul flights, the low cost end of the business which is growing on all routes. Equally, there is massive opportunity for Aer Lingus in terms of long-haul flights. If we got a coherent result on the operational side between long-haul and short-haul flights for the benefit of the passenger, we would be in business. Dublin will be a formidable hub compared to some of the other European airports.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We must proceed to the next question.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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People must consider the wider picture. This is about Ireland, not individuals. I am not in this business to look after any particular individual but to make a decision on behalf of this country.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I have called Question No. 3.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Did the Minister make that speech to the Cabinet on Tuesday?

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is responsible for making this decision but he has not done so. That is the precise point we have been making.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We are way over the time allocated for this question.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The House knows well where I stand on this issue.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister is shifting to the left.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minster is the person responsible for making this decision.