Peter Power (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to share time with Deputies Nolan, O'Connor and Michael Moynihan.

Jim Glennon (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Peter Power (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Unfortunately, there is nobody on the Opposition benches — nobody from any party other than my party — to engage in this debate. Although you cannot make a judgment on that, we all agree it is unfortunate the party proposing the motion and the parties supporting and speaking in favour of it are not here to listen to some opposing views in defence of the Government's long, proud record on education. I make that point because the record sometimes cannot convey that. I am now delighted to see my constituency colleague from the Labour Party, who proposed the motion, joining us.

Peter Power (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I compliment Deputy O'Sullivan and the Labour Party for proposing this motion. The discussion is timely. Any time is a good time to discuss education. There is a much greater appreciation and understanding now for the importance of education in people's lives and in the development of young people's lives, and for the importance of education in developing a good, long-term career. That is why parents invest so much time and money in educating their children. Anybody who has seen the recent coverage in the British general election campaign over the past few days will appreciate its enormous focus on education, which is to the forefront of political discourse not just in this country but in other countries.

Before dealing with the cold, hard statistics of class sizes and pupil-teacher ratios, it is important to examine the environment and context of the debate not just on class sizes but on education in general. There is a much wider, more holistic dimension to the education debate than mere class sizes. That is not to suggest class sizes are not important, but it is wrong to discuss the great issues of education in such a narrow context or with such a narrow focus. That is not to detract from the motion. The Minister of Education and Science very ably set out a fine defence of the Government's position last night. The motion does not recognise the reality of the education debate that is taking place in people's houses, in classrooms and in staff rooms. Issues such as the function and role of teachers are important, and the increasing difficulty getting male teachers to join the education system is a major problem. There are also issues around the built environment of schools, the syllabus and educational disadvantage.

We should discuss the situation of real people facing educational disadvantage before we discuss the numbers, with some children not even getting into the classroom. Their parents, schools and teachers might not even have a debate on how many people are in the classroom. In many areas in Limerick, in my constituency, as Deputy O'Sullivan will be aware, the debate is not on that. The debate is on whether we can get the children into the classroom in the first place. Surely that is the context in which we should be debating matters of real education. Let us argue about how many people are in classrooms afterwards. In many cases in my area, there are difficulties getting the children there, and we need to discuss that.

I had the privilege of serving on the governing authority of the University of Limerick for a number of years. It was clear from the statistics that came before the governing authority in UL that very few people from disadvantaged areas in Limerick were there. We have a greater proportion of disadvantaged and socially excluded areas. They exist in a small, concentrated area compared with the rest of the country. The big debate in UL is not whether we are taking in students from big, small or medium-sized classes; the big debate at governing authority level is how to get students from disadvantaged areas into schools situated there. Those are the real issues.

Nobody can discuss class sizes without discussing the size and condition of the classrooms and the schools where they are situated. It is a far too narrow debate merely to discuss the number of people we can cram into a class, and I acknowledge that they sometimes are crammed into classes. I would prefer to discuss problems such as leaking roofs in those classrooms or the lack of appropriate information technology to support them. With all due respect to the motion's proposers, and although the discussion is timely, to divorce the size of classrooms from class sizes is to introduce a far too narrow focus to the debate. If we seek to reduce class sizes and to increase the number of teachers, surely we need more schools——

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Small class sizes are good for education.

Peter Power (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We need more schools.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They are good for education.

Jim Glennon (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Power, without interruption.

Peter Power (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I acknowledge Deputy Finian McGrath's interest and expertise in this area. As an objective observer, however, I suggest that the proper debate would be to ask whether we should have more classes, before we debate how many people should be in them.

Peter Power (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I fervently believe, and have done for a long time, that before we ask whether the ratio should be 10:1, 20:1 or 30:1, or whether the class size is 25 on average, we should have a debate on other issues such as the built environment and the quality of the environment in which teachers teach.

Let us not get away from the reality that we are in the middle of the largest, most sustained period of building in education that this State has ever seen. The subject of class sizes has a part to play in that, but it cannot be divorced from the fact that enormous resources are now being pumped into education. We cannot divorce the motion from the issue of special needs education. Parents and teachers in my area tell me they want the issue of extra resources, teachers and special needs assistants to be put ahead of class sizes. They say the ideal world would have unlimited school and classroom sizes. However, politics is about priorities and directing our resources in the correct way. Teachers are telling me that is where they would like resources to be prioritised. For that reason, I fully support the Minister's focus on that area.

The motion is fine, but it is far too narrowly focused. It does not take into account——

Peter Power (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I accept that. It is one of the last points that it contains.

I will make one final point, and I am delighted that Deputy Enright is here to listen to it. Her colleague, Deputy English, made a point about this last night, and he produced a whole pile of figures to support his argument, which I doubted at the time, and about which I questioned him in the Chamber. He suggested that the last time Fine Gael was in power, the Government spent more on education as a percentage of gross domestic product, and he produced graphs and so on to show that. The rainbow coalition spent 4.5% of gross domestic product on education. On the back of a large increase in GDP, this Government is spending 5.3%, which represents an increase of almost 20%. We can argue about class sizes and investment in resources, but the Government's focus in the past seven years has been on pumping a huge amount of additional resources into education and I compliment the Minister on her sterling defence of the motion last night.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am grateful to say a few words on this important motion and compliment Deputy O'Sullivan and her party colleagues on giving us the opportunity. In addition to Deputy O'Sullivan, I acknowledge the other experts present in the House such as Deputies Enright and Finian McGrath, whom I have known as a great teacher for a long time, as well as Deputy Crowe.

It is important to support what the Minister is trying to achieve. I am happy to acknowledge the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, who is a regular visitor to Dublin South-West and Tallaght in particular. He visited St. Anne's national school in Tallaght last week and saw for himself the positive work being done in a disadvantaged area. I am sure he gave a very good report to the Minister. He met a number of young people from different schools in Fettercairn, Killinarden and Brookfield. It is important to remain positive about what is being achieved in our schools.

I support the Minister's efforts to reduce class sizes because that is what we should be doing. We should give every possible opportunity to young people to progress. My generation perceived schools as tough, yet I did well out of my school days and childhood. Some Deputies might disagree. I was educated by the nuns in Clarendon Street and the Christian Brothers in Synge Street and Drimnagh Castle. I look back on my school days as a very positive experience and it is important that people do so.

St. Mark's junior and senior schools in Springfield, Tallaght, have been operating since 1973 and have provided a tremendous service to young people in the catchment area over that period. The junior school predicts that in the next year academic year it will have between 500 and 530 pupils, 200 of whom will be non-nationals. The senior school predicts it will have 400 pupils, 140 of whom will be non-national. The schools point out that the majority of their international students do not speak English as their first language. Children from 32 different countries now attend my local schools and hail from Angola, Albania, Bulgaria, Bangladesh, Bosnia Herzegovina, Cameroon, China, Congo, the Czech Republic, Egypt, Ethiopia, England, India, Ireland, the Ivory Coast, Jordan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, the Philippines, Russia, Romania, Somalia, South Africa, Ukraine, Yugoslavia and Vietnam.

This clearly represents a major challenge for my local schools. The principals tell me that the majority of international students live in private rented accommodation and their families are fully reliant on social welfare. This puts considerable strain on school finances and the schools do not have a home-school-community liaison teacher. They are trying to deal with the avalanche of day to day social, emotional and psychological challenges that accompany relocated people. No interpreters are available to the schools and the cost of employing one is beyond their means. They struggle to maintain educational standards and standardised tests show just how poorly many of the children perform when they seek to understand the finer points of the English language. If it were up to any of us, we would still be speaking Irish. However, that is another day's debate.

The Department of Education and Science must take account of the challenges presented by non-national pupils in schools such as St. Mark's in Springfield. The schools request that English language support be provided for more than two years. Some of the children entering the senior school in fourth class have never been to school before and supports cannot deal with their needs within two years. Three teachers in the junior school are attempting to support the language needs of 170 international pupils, which represents a ratio of 56 pupils to each teacher. Three teachers in the senior school are attempting to support the language needs of 110 non-national children. The ratio of resource teachers to pupils in respect of children from the Traveller community is 14:1, although I do not mean this as an unfair comparison. Many people are beginning to wonder about the Department's approach in this regard.

Some 25% of the pupil population in Springfield are non-nationals. It is very difficult for the schools to have a long-term plan for the children because they must apply for the resources year on year. The average class size in the two schools is 30 pupils per teacher, with approximately ten non-national children per class who do not speak English as a primary language.

I do not want to distract from the other points on the motion, but it is important for me to make this particular case. I have visited schools in my constituency in Tallaght, Firhouse, Greenhills, Templeogue and Brittas and seen that it is becoming more of a challenge. We must all as politicians support our local schools because they provide a tremendously valuable service. They look after our young people in a very challenging world. Young people throughout Ireland are being very well educated and it is important that the Department looks at what is being done as well as the challenges presented by the non-national community. I hope the Minister of State takes account of what I have said and passes it on to the Minister.

The Minister of State witnessed for himself the positive work that is being done in Tallaght. It was an amazing time. Anybody familiar with the schools in their constituencies will agree. We must take account of the Minister's amendment. She is acknowledging the need for the Government to continue to provide significant additional resources. Other people have made political points so there is no need for me to do so.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When will it happen?

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Fianna Fáil Deputies will not take lectures from people with regard to resources.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Can we have a timescale?

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The resources are being provided and Deputy McGrath knows that from his work. He did a tremendous job in a disadvantaged school and received a great deal of support and resources.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The battle goes on.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Let us not be afraid to acknowledge the good that is being done while at the same time, in a positive way, make the case for more resources, as I am doing.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is what the debate is about.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am proud to be in Fianna Fáil and to support this Government.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It cannot deliver. Look at the motion.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am still prepared to raise the issues, but people locally will say that the Government is delivering. Everybody is entitled to their perspective.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Look at the facts and figures.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Things are happening. I look forward to supporting the Government amendment and thank the House for its forbearance.

M J Nolan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate and I commend the Deputies who tabled the motion thus affording us backbenchers on the Government side the opportunity to speak to it. It is important to realise that significant progress has been made in the area of education and particularly in primary education since 1997. The pupil-teacher ratio has been a hot potato for many Governments in the past ten years. However, since 1997 the pupil-teacher ratio has reduced. Perhaps it has not reduced as much as many of would like and all Deputies have been lobbied by a number of schools in their constituencies to address the problems of high pupil-teacher ratios. Anybody involved in politics for more than ten years can see the improvements made, not just in primary education but also in secondary and third level education. Huge resources have been invested and I commend all Governments in the past 20 to 25 years for their commitment to education, which has paid off. We have seen the success of that investment in the upturn in the economy since 1987. Without the investment made, going back to the time of Donogh O'Malley, we would not have benefited from the upturn that has occurred.

Since 1997, some 4,000 additional teachers including almost 2,000 resource teachers have been employed. These additional teaching posts have been used to reduce class sizes, tackle educational disadvantage and provide additional resources for children with special needs. On more than one occasion the Minister has outlined the Government's philosophy and thinking on spending. The Government's spending has been focused on the area of disadvantage, about which nobody can complain. The pupil-teacher ratio has also fallen from 22.2:1 in 1996-97 to 17.44:1 in 2003-04. The average class size has been reduced from 26.6 in 1996-97 to 24 in 2003-04. Significantly smaller class sizes have been introduced in disadvantaged schools involved in the Breaking the Cycle programme, with approximately 47,700 pupils in 243 participating schools availing of reduced class sizes of either 15 or 20.

I wish to highlight an issue that is evolving particularly in counties adjacent to Dublin, where we can see the effect of our economic success. Many people are moving out of the city and are purchasing houses in formerly rural areas. Developers have a role to play in this matter. In my constituency developers may be granted planning permission for 100 or 200 houses in a small rural area. The local authorities are providing the infrastructure, including water and sewerage. However, because of the capital investment required for a new school or new classrooms in existing schools, the Department is coming under considerable pressure following the construction of such new developments to provide facilities and teachers. We all know that developers are making significant profits given the strength of our economy. The Minister should consider working with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to oblige developers to construct an additional classroom or two additional classrooms as a requirement of planning permission granted to them. They could well afford to do so. The onus would then be on the Department to provide the teachers. In this way we could provide an integrated plan for many or our small rural villages and towns.

It is widely acknowledged that the Minister, in her role as Minister for Education and Science, is benefiting from her experience as a teacher. The Minister is doing her best with the resources available to her, which are significant when compared with those available ten or 15 years ago. I wish the Minister success in her programme of investment in education, particularly at primary level.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. In my sixth class in the national school in Boherbue we had 43 pupils, 24 boys and 19 girls. That was a while ago and things have improved since. We can all make political points about what has and has not happened. However, we must accept that much has changed in the past ten years in the education system particularly in primary education. I pay tribute to the teachers who have adapted to changes in curriculum, in parents' expectations and in the implementation of the education system. Primary education has changed completely in the past ten or 15 years. Deputy O'Connor mentioned students from 25 nationalities in a small number of schools and I welcome these changes. It is great that Ireland is becoming a multicultural society and the State must provide for such students. I acknowledge the pressure on teachers in those schools. Anybody involved in primary education or any aspect of education would see that.

I could trot out the figures for the additional teachers and special needs assistants employed since 1997. In the past only FÁS provided funding for a special needs assistant and now this is done through mainstream funding from the Department of Education and Science. I am proud of all these changes following lobbying by politicians. We need to continue to ensure that more funding is given to education. In some of her speeches since being appointed to the Department of Education and Science, the Minister has clearly stated that she is seeking further resources to ensure we have the best possible education system. Considering the social deprivation and disadvantage in our society, much remains to be done in the education sector, housing etc. to ensure people do not fall into poverty traps.

We need to maximise our investment in the primary and pre-primary sectors. Many social problems have developed over generations and it will take much more than reducing class sizes to tackle them. We need more resources to reduce class sizes. We must accept that much has changed in recent years and that extra resources have been allocated to the sector. We must continue to ensure that further resources will be allocated to reduce class sizes and to ensure the proper buildings are provided. With the explosion in the population the facilities in all schools are now inadequate. While we have additional teachers, including remedial resource teachers and extra-curricular teachers, the facilities are not in place. As Deputy Nolan has said, it may be time to look for a contribution from some of the developers who are making huge money to fund additional facilities in schools throughout the country. The problem does not just exist in the commuter belt around Dublin but throughout the country. In every small town and village facilities are bulging at the seams and need to be extended. Since 1997, we have put enormous resources into class sizes and into disadvantage in primary education and the education system in general. We have more to achieve and need to put more resources into the system. I know the Minister will endeavour to do that and I wish her well.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I wish to share time with Deputies McGrath, Healy, Connolly, Gogarty and Crowe. Ba mhaith liom tacaíocht a thabhairt don tairiscint thábhachtach seo i dtaobh cúrsaí oideachais, go háirithe ós rud é gur iar-mhúinteoir mé, ach freisin toisc go bhfuilim i mo Theachta do cheantar i lár na cathrach seo, áit nach bhfuil an deis chéanna ag páistí scoile dul chun cinn a dhéanamh chun oideachas tríú leibhéil a bhaint amach. In the two minutes available to me, I wish to put on record my absolute support for this important motion on education and class size. It is clearly a very black mark on the record of the Irish State, that after the years of the Celtic tiger, with huge budgetary surpluses and the continuing economic boom, Ireland remains with the second highest average class size in the European Union, despite the commitment in the programme for Government that class sizes would be progressively reduced to below the international best practice of 20 to one.

I represent the north inner city of Dublin, as does the Taoiseach. Regrettably, it is a byword for educational disadvantage and ironically is the area where the office and headquarters of the Minister for Education and Science is located. I remind the Minister that the most recent study by the Higher Education Authority yet again demonstrates that the issue of access to third level education remains particularly bleak in the north inner city, with fewer than one in five school leavers going on to third level colleges. In some communities in that area, not a single child gets to university. This will not be rectified until the issue of class size at primary level in particular is addressed. Those few schools lucky enough to participate in the Breaking the Cycle programme see the real benefits of smaller classes for disadvantaged children. Even there however, the reduction of class size is only at junior level. Classes often double in size in the same schools at senior level. What chance do these children have to break out of the cycle of disadvantage? I sincerely hope this Government will now belatedly honour its commitment on class size and that the Minister, who has voiced her own concern on disadvantaged education will make a real impact in this much neglected area.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is an important motion. I declare a special interest in that I have been a teacher for more than 20 years and am still a member of the INTO. I am always honoured and privileged to represent the INTO view in the Dáil and will continue to push the case for education, the importance of teachers in society and their valuable role in the community. It is essential that this House notes that Irish primary schools have the second highest class size in the EU, that no improvements in mainstream class size have been made in the past three years and that additional teachers are urgently required to meet the needs of pupils with special educational needs and from disadvantaged communities. I call on all Deputies to support the campaign led by the INTO and to support local communities in securing improved staffing levels in primary schools so that primary classes are reduced to European norms in accordance with best practice as promised in An Agreed Programme for Government from 2002 to 2007.

I also demand increased resources for primary education, specifically including a reduction in primary class size as a matter of national importance that warrants immediate action. I am sick to the teeth with the teacher-bashing that goes on in wider Irish society. My experience of teachers, as a teacher for 20 years is as follows: teachers assisting pupils outside of school hours; teachers training and bringing pupils to matches after hours; teachers putting their lives at risk in child abuse cases; teachers bringing children abroad and around the country at weekends; teachers assisting children with disabilities, far above the call of duty.

I know many teachers who have done this on numerous occasions. I commend them in this debate tonight and I welcome my colleagues from the INTO to the Visitors Gallery. We have also seen teachers taking on racism head on while some politicians in this House have stoked the fires of fear. Teachers who do extra work in their local communities are not looking for gold medals for their work. They enjoy their job and derive great satisfaction from it. However, they deserve balanced reporting and fair play. I urge all Deputies in this House to defend teachers.

I mention schools in my own constituency such as Gaelscoil CholmCille, which is still located in the facilities of a football ground. We also have large class sizes in schools in Marino, Clontarf, Killester, Artane and Beaumont. On the issue of staffing in schools, it is essential that we understand that class size is a major issue for teachers throughout the State. Parents are concerned that teachers are operating in large classes. We want action from the Government and I call on all Deputies in this House, across all parties, to support education, teachers and our pupils.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In June 2002, the programme for Government read as follows:

Over the next five years, we will progressively introduce maximum class guidelines which will ensure that average size of classes for children under nine will be below the international best practice guideline of one in 20.

Three years later, the Government has failed to even take a small step forward in that direction. Unfortunately, we have significantly large class sizes, the second largest, if not the largest in Europe. This makes a mockery of the new primary school curriculum and its methodology, which is needed to ensure that teachers deliver it well.

In my own constituency of Tipperary South, the INTO has recently carried out a survey that found 47 primary classes in south Tipperary with 30 to 34 pupils. A total of eight primary classes have 35 or more pupils. A total of 1,815 primary pupils are in classes of 30 pupils or more and 288 of these are in classes of 35 or more. This means that 25% of primary school pupils in south Tipperary are in classes of more than 30 pupils. This situation simply cannot continue and it throws cold water on the introduction of the new primary school curriculum. The introduction to the curriculum states that all children have the right of access to the highest quality education appropriate to their needs. This includes children whose disabilities or circumstances inhibit their effective participation in the education that is normally provided for children of their age. How can progress be made on this and other issues in the curriculum when the Government refuses to implement its own guidelines, which it put forward in the programme for Government announced in June 2002? I call on the Minister and the Department to ensure that the commitment given in 2002 is honoured immediately.

Paudge Connolly (Cavan-Monaghan, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Teaching is one of the areas in which I receive quite a large number of representations from teachers, parents and schools. It is always focused on class size and accommodation at schools. In many cases, the accommodation leaves much to be desired. It gives me no great pleasure to note that the primary school class size, which is supposed to average at 24.2 pupils, is ranked as the second worst in the enlarged 25-nation EU. It is a grievous indictment of our education system. Class size reduction should become an urgent priority and I do not get any sense that the issue is currently being prioritised. The existing Government programme is meaningless, as its own guidelines are not being met. Implementation of the current guidelines would ensure that the average class size for children of age nine and under would be below the international best practice of 20 to one. However, this is not happening. The programme for Government indicated that it would meet certain class sizes. Two years remain, and I do not detect any sign that the target will be met.

Deputy Healy referred to the large class sizes in Tipperary. I assure him that we have the same problems in Monaghan and Cavan and I imagine that every Deputy from every county has encountered similar statistics. It is also well documented that educational gains made by primary school children in junior classes are particularly long-lasting. It is very important, as one is only young once, in terms of increased pupil engagement, more hands-on learning, higher teacher morale and a more cohesive classroom atmosphere with minimal behavioural problems. These are issues of which we cannot lose sight. In addition, the issue of more individualised teaching is important. Teachers get an opportunity of involving themselves more with children and with writing and oral issues. Teachers can individually teach children who may have missed a few days of school through sickness. Children who are lagging behind need additional encouragement and they can receive this in normal-sized classrooms. Currently, teachers in classrooms with 30 or 40 pupils can only concentrate on teaching the three Rs and other aspects of pupils' development are left behind. There is more to education that learning the three Rs. Young people need to be taught how to communicate. Some children are good at music and we should be able to draw out other talents that children have.

Deputy McGrath mentioned teacher involvement. There is a better chance that a teacher will become involved in extracurricular activities if he or she is satisfied in his or her work. These are things that we have been taking for granted from teachers. I remember a teacher of mine who was involved in sports. I developed a better relationship with that teacher through it. If a teacher brought pupils out on to the football pitch after teaching, pupils tried harder and took greater pride in doing their work well. If the relationship between teacher and pupil is fostered correctly at the junior and primary school level, it will carry through to the secondary level.

We wonder why people cannot communicate or trust others. If children are not taught how to trust seniors or their peers in society, they will never learn. We see the result of this lack of trust and inability to communicate in the current high suicide rate. We wonder why children drop out of school or students drop out of third level education.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome this motion but I will not say too much on the wording of it. I raised it as a priority question on 9 March 2005. The Government broke the promise it made in the programme for Government to reduce class sizes. We all know that class size reduction makes a tangible difference. Developers should be made provide school buildings as part of the planning process. These measures are in the hands of the Government.

I am tired of pious rhetoric with regard to education. I welcome the INTO's efforts to reduce class sizes but I am not sure whether it will receive more than lip service from the Government and the Opposition. We have witnessed the very cynical launch of a campaign against anti-social behaviour from one of the parties in this House. This party is acting on the backs of poorer areas that face the brunt of anti-social behaviour and harassment and is attempting to delude people in middle-class areas that anti-social behaviour is rife. Anti-social behaviour does exist in certain areas. I want to raise the question of what causes this behaviour. More gardaí can be put on the streets, as I said in the debate on the Garda Síochána Bill 2004, but the cause of anti-social behaviour will not be tackled by platitudes and electioneering. The way to deter criminality and to ensure, as the Progressive Democrats would put it, that we are not costing the economy money in terms of prison spaces, social welfare and reduced taxation because people cannot get higher paying jobs due to lack of qualifications, is to invest in education. I put it to the Minister for State and any of her colleagues who are watching that investing in education today can make a considerable difference in five or ten years and save the State money. I am emphasising the financial benefits of investing in education rather than the social benefits because money is all this Government appears to understand. I concede that record amounts of money have been spent on education but more is needed.

I want to address the question of how the cycle of educational disadvantage in both disadvantaged areas and well-off areas with disadvantaged pupils can be broken. Breaking this cycle involves putting a major investment into reducing class sizes. I would like to ask Opposition Deputies in particular, as well as Government Deputies, to stop thinking about the next election and think forward if they are serious about education. Are politicians willing to have a real debate about funding education? Are people willing to put their money where their mouths are? I asked some Green Party researchers to do some calculations based on last year's figures to find out what a 1 cent increase in income tax or a comparable increase in an eco-tax would raise for education. They found that a 1 cent increase in income tax would net €540 million, while a comparable raise for an eco-tax would raise €460 million. I am not suggesting that it is Green Party policy to raise income taxes to pay for education. All of the parties in this House must have an honest debate about where the money to fund education will come from. I am tired of hearing people say we need to fund education and how terrible it is that there are six year old children entering school who have not been toilet-trained and that teachers can identify children at the age of seven who will cause trouble when they are older and possibly end up in prison and yet who do not come up with any answers as to how to fund education. If we are to be taken seriously as legislators, we have to come up with concrete solutions. There are certain ways in which current Exchequer funds could be diverted to education. I ask the Government to debate the economic cost of not investing in education and the Opposition to debate where the money is going to come from because we are all paying lip service because of the INTO campaign. In a year's time, will the situation have changed? Are we willing to pay for education?

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Last year, in the run up to the teachers' conferences, while the crisis in the education system bubbled and boiled to the surface, the former Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, hummed and hawed about whether he would attend. When he attended the teachers' conferences, John Carr of the INTO summed up the feeling of its delegates when he said "It's class size Minister". That statement was revisited at this year's teachers' conferences. Class size is the big issue that needs to be tackled and not put in the box of things to do.

The campaign to highlight the failures in Government funding of education needs all our support, not because it is a worthy policy to increase educational investment but because many children's lives are blighted by inadequate school facilities, overcrowded classrooms, unqualified teachers and a system of allocating teachers to schools that is not reflective of the needs of the schools, their students or their principals. We are failing many of our children and their ability to finish school is being undermined. One in five students who progress to secondary school never complete a State examination. Many students leave school with little or no literacy or writing skills. There is a variety of reasons for this but class size and an education system which fails to adapt to the needs of the individual pupil is at the core of the problem.

The Government has produced reports stating the child-teacher ratio for children under nine years should be 20:1. These reports have been coming out for three years but we have seen no real action. A school must have 46 students to retain two teachers. Children over nine years often need smaller classes too because when they go into larger classes, they often lose the benefit they have gained.

The new "weighted system" for special needs students will require 1,000 additional teachers. Only 350 of these have been provided so far. Schools are in a "no man's land" because the old system has been abolished but the new system is not in place. Special needs students in mainstream schools get one hour of special education a day if they are lucky. Some parents want to get their children into these schools so badly that they play down the level of special education their children will need. The limit of one resource teacher per 150 pupils needs to be examined and children with special needs should have a seamless transfer of their supports throughout their educational life. It is not happening at the moment.

Deputy O'Connor talked about schools in my constituency and my local school and he outlined that the system is failing the children in these schools, their parents, teachers and the principals. My local school is on the edge of a RAPID area and has children from clearly disadvantaged backgrounds but is not considered a disadvantaged school by the Department of Education and Science.

Like others, I eagerly await the Minister of State's response. We read daily about ever better reports on Exchequer finances. Let us spend some of this money on our children in an efficient and equitable way. We have the cohort of teachers coming on stream and the finances in our economy. What we seem to lack is consistency and the political will to follow through.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I wish to share time with Deputies Sean Ryan, Burton and Enright.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank our spokesperson, Deputy O'Sullivan, for focusing on this important issue and for presenting us with an opportunity to debate it in the House. What could be more important than the education and future of our children? The higher pupil-teacher ratio in this State arises directly from a shameful neglect by the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government of this most basic aspect of the future of our children and our country.

There is no mystery, nor does it require rocket science to do so, in accurately predicting the number of primary schoolchildren and school places available for them in the country at any given time, as the number and places are known. Why have we situations where children are being taught in substandard prefab classrooms with a pupil-teacher ratio that is often as high as 30:1? Why are schools so overcrowded in some areas that children are refused entry until they are five and a half years of age? The answer is simple. The Government, with the taxpayers' money coming out its ears, has given priority to areas other than to children's education. Racecourses have been developed to a high degree while schools await the sanctioning of more prefabs. Millionaires can avail of various tax avoidance schemes while children are packed into oversized classes. Millions of euro are spent on useless voting computers and thousands of acres are zoned for housing without any plans for the predictable ensuing school places or other services.

This Government has decided the education of our children is not a priority and has abandoned its solid promise of a 20:1 ratio in classes. Teachers are idle while literacy problems affect up to 50% of children in some areas and large classes continue to adversely affect all pupils, especially those with learning difficulties. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, blithely dispatches the Government's undertaking to reduce class sizes to 20. The Minister recently visited most, if not all, of the schools in my constituency and she cannot be unaware of the situation in north County Kildare.

Seán Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That was before the by-election.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

She did so during the by-election. The Minister saw the pupil-teacher ratios. Scoil na Mainistreach in Celbridge has a ratio of 27.7:1, Scoil Bríd in Celbridge is 26.5:1, Scoil Bhríde in Leixlip is 27:1, Scoil Choca Naofa in Kilcock is 29:1, Scoil Mochua in Celbridge is 28.5:1 and the Holy Child national school in Naas is 30:1. All these schools have yards full of prefabs and waiting lists of children who have not been admitted owing to overcrowding. This is not an exhaustive list as there are many more. For example, Saint Corban's national school in Naas was promised a prefab classroom to allow its physical education room to return to service. The Minister made this promise during the recent by-election but we have not seen sight nor sound of the prefab or the Minister since.

Kill national school is bursting at the seams. The school is located on a virtual traffic island in the middle of the N7 upgrade works. Where is the often promised new national school for Kill? It has been promised by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in the past three elections but has failed to materialise and the children of Kill suffer on. Kildare now has the highest pupil-teacher ratio in the whole country at 27.2 pupils per teacher. Only 4% of Kildare children are taught in classes of fewer than 20 pupils while 37% are in classes of more than 30 pupils. This is a disgrace and a public scandal. We have the money to correct it and I demand we do so now. I pay tribute to the teachers who are working under these circumstances in my constituency. Given the circumstances, they do excellent jobs. I demand that the Government acts on its promise and fulfils it in time for the next election.

Seán Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am pleased to have the opportunity to make a contribution to this debate on class sizes, an issue that is a matter of grave concern for parents, teachers and boards of management. As a Deputy for Dublin North, one of the constituencies within Fingal, I am deeply concerned by the statistics showing that Ireland has the second highest average class size in the EU and that schools in Fingal have the joint second highest average class sizes in Ireland. In effect, our schools and classes are top of the EU league for the wrong reasons. This is unacceptable and not in the interests of the children.

The Government made a commitment to the electorate to reduce class sizes prior to the general election in 2002. In its programme for Government, it gave an undertaking to continue to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio to 20:1 for all children under the age of nine. Three years into the life of this Government, there has been little or no change and the reality within schools bears this out. Information obtained by the Labour Party shows that 13,438 children are being educated in classes of between 20 and 29 students in Fingal. There are 8,302 children being educated in classes of between 30 and 39 students. How would the Minister, in her previous life as a teacher, have envisaged teaching up to 39 students in a class? I await her reply.

One of the schools in my constituency has 13 classes. The average size is 29.5 pupils and eight of the classes have 30 or more children. I fully agree with the teaching staff who wrote to me when they stated that such numbers in classes greatly impact on the progress of all children within the school and that academic studies show the benefits of reduced class sizes. Another school in my constituency, a junior school in this case, has 30 pupils in every class. There are a number of Educate Together schools within my constituency where children in third class have still not received access to learning supports of any description. This is the reality.

In the past, the Minister of State's predecessors have used the shortage of qualified teachers as a justification of the lack of progress. This excuse is no longer valid because, for the first time in many years, qualified primary teachers are available to work and a further 1,600 are set to graduate this year. My constituency is one of the fastest growing areas in the country and its educational situation has reached crisis proportions. In addition to the problem of large class sizes, we have a situation wherein parents are unable to secure school places for their children in Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush and Lusk. In Balbriggan, for example, parents are unable to secure places for their children who may already be in schools from their previous addresses or who are due to commence school in September 2005. As a result, I have been in contact with parents who have been left with no alternative other than to leave their children with relatives or friends more than 30 miles away between Mondays and Fridays. This is obviously not in the interests of the children or their parents and I want this matter to be addressed.

The Minister for Education and Science gives the usual excuse in response. A new school planning model involving published area development plans is being piloted in five areas over the current school year, including the areas of north Dublin, east County Meath and south County Louth. My concern is that this proposed consultative process will be used as a delaying tactic by the Department, especially in respect of areas where the shortage of education facilities is painfully obvious and well known to the Department.

The Minister said recently that we must never lose sight of the fact that helping all pupils reach their full potential is part of the education system. I fully concur, but the best way to achieve this objective is by reducing class sizes and by producing the interventions required by all our children. By that, the Government will be judged come the next election. Irrespective of the election, we are thinking of the future of our children and the teachers educating them.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Next year will be the 90th anniversary of 1916 and we will be in the run up to the 100th anniversary. The part of the proclamation with which most Irish people most easily identify, regardless of political party affiliation or none, is that which urges us to cherish all the children of the nation equally. Instead, in Dublin West along with Dublin North and areas such as Kildare and Meath, which are the fastest growing parts of the country, parents sit around breakfast tables crying because they do not have certainty about their five year old children — not their four year old children — accessing a school place.

In one school in my constituency, rightly called Mary Mother of Hope national school, for a child to qualify for a place the following September, they would have to have been four by the previous December. St. Brigid's national school in the leafy lanes of Castleknock was built in 1971 and it has its fair share of very prosperous parents. However, the pupil teacher ratio in a number of classes is almost 30:1. One might say this is an advantaged area to follow on the comments made by Deputy Crowe. Castleknock has its fair share of millionaires. However, there are 16 children from the Traveller community on the Navan Road in the school and who are cherished by it. There are also 70 children for whom English is not their mother tongue. The school has special needs. Some of those needs are being addressed by the conversion of a broom cupboard into school space. In another part of the school, a toilet has been converted. Only last weekend masonry fell in the school yard but, thankfully, nobody was injured.

Shakespeare spoke about the seven ages of man but this Minister for Education and Science and this Government have seven stages of torture, which they will elongate if they can, in determining when and how schools get the necessary resources. It is simply stunning that last week a list of schools proceeding to architectural consultation stage was published as a gain by the Minister when any Deputy on the Government or the Opposition benches knows that there are at least another four stages. This is not management but is an Irish version of torture where the issue is dragged out.

With the introduction of resource teachers in schools with various specials needs, the overall ratio is being compressed but often resource teachers have no place in which to work. If the Government delivered on its promise to reduce the pupil teacher ratio to 20:1, an immediate building programme, the purchase of land adjacent to existing schools and the purchase of more land for new schools in greenfield areas would be needed to make that ratio a reality. Who are Fianna Fáil's friends? It is not children or their parents; it is the developers in the tents at the Galway races. They call the score when it comes to buying and selling land which affects all our children's futures.

In the case of Mary Mother of Hope national school — let us hope she is looking down on us — the Department of Education and Science paid a builder and prominent Fianna Fáil supporter €3 million for three acres and said it could not get another two acres to build the size of school necessary. The Government stands indicted. If it cannot manage, it should move aside and let another Government meet the needs of children.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I congratulate Deputy O'Sullivan and the Labour Party on tabling this motion. Deputy Peter Power felt the motion was too narrow and not broad enough. I do not know if he was in the House on the last three occasions we discussed the schools building programme on Private Members' time. I am tempted to respond to Deputy Gogarty because he wanted to hear what we have to say but in that regard, absence speaks louder than words.

Ireland is supposedly the economic miracle of the European Union. We have supposedly seen the end of the bad old days of the 1950s and 1980s. We are a new confident people ready to take our place on the world stage. That is what we repeatedly hear about Ireland today. Indeed, much has changed and we must be proud of our economic success. However, we must ask whether our recent success is being translated into a real improvement in educational provision for young people. Unfortunately, I do not believe it is and the cycle of educational disadvantage is being allowed to continue by this Government.

The Government stands indicted on its record and the figures on average class sizes speak for themselves. The fact remains that in this brave new world of Ireland in 2005, our class sizes are among the highest in the EU and are above the OECD average. At present 80% of children under nine years of age are in classes of more than 20, which is unacceptable.

Class sizes affect schools and children in a number of ways. Not only do our oversized classes affect educational performance, larger class sizes also compound educational disadvantage with negative long-term consequences for many children. Lower class sizes can make a real educational impact, especially for children in junior classes. For younger children, the best start in education is important so that they can adjust to the learning experience and do not have to play catch up as they go through schooling. For older children, smaller classes mean more individual attention from the teacher as well as fewer distractions and a more productive classroom environment. By failing to attack class sizes radically, the Government is missing the link between larger class sizes and educational disadvantage.

The number of children who fail to make the transition from primary to secondary schooling has grown dramatically in recent years and now exceeds 1,000 per year. This is an appalling statistic and highlights that educational disadvantage must be tackled from the earliest days of a child's education. For these 1,000 children, re-entry into education at some point in the future is unlikely. When we lose children from education, especially at such a tender age, we face a long uphill struggle to encourage them to re-engage with the education process. Early school drop-out can have a profoundly negative impact on a person's life. By putting in place the best possible structures to support children in school, we will avoid these difficulties in later life. Tackling the size of classes is one vital step which needs to be taken to reduce the level of school drop-out.

In tandem with the reduction in class sizes, the most up to date and appropriate teaching methods should be applied so that every child can reach his or her educational potential. Each child's educational potential must be fully tapped and supported through the use of the best possible teaching methods. There is a great deal of international research on this issue. One significant research project undertaken by the Nottingham University school of education in 1996 found that class size made a difference at both primary and secondary levels. Other research undertaken by Robinson and Wittebols in 1986 also showed that the positive effects of reducing class sizes at primary level were most evident in the junior school years. Interestingly, the study also cautioned that the positive effects of lower class sizes were less evident if teachers did not change their teaching methodologies and classroom management techniques in smaller classes. This highlights the need to give teachers the support and resources they need to review teaching styles so that children benefit from the most up to date and appropriate teaching methods according to their class size.

There are also issues in regard to class sizes at second level and the teaching of specific subjects. When teaching science subjects, home economics and other practical subjects, class size is very much a factor, especially when students are obliged to share equipment or laboratory space. In addition, when science experiments involve the use of chemicals, open flames and gases, an increase in teacher supervision and individual attention is understandably needed.

This Government made a clear and unambiguous commitment in the 2002 programme for Government. This commitment was to progressively introduce maximum class guidelines which will ensure the average size of classes for children under nine years of age will be below the international best practice guideline of 20:1. Shortly after the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, took office, she downgraded this commitment to the status of a noble aspiration. No doubt in line with the reduce-reuse-recycle policy of the Government, this commitment will find its way back into the Fianna Fáil manifesto for the next election.

Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Although I did not agree with Deputy Gogarty, I was nearly beginning to feel sorry for him. He was rounded on by members of the Labour Party and Fine Gael, yet we are led to believe these are the likely coalition partners of a future Government. It says a lot for the likely approach to education by the Opposition parties, among which there is obviously no coherence or cohesiveness.

Education has been prioritised by the Government. As a result of the huge increase in the budget provision for the Department of Education and Science, we have been able to increase the number of teachers in our schools, reduce class sizes, improve the quality of school buildings and greatly improve the services provided for children from disadvantaged areas and for those with special needs.

More than 4,000 additional posts have been created at primary level since 1997. In addition at post-primary level, an additional 1,225 posts have been created and more than 1,700 posts, which would otherwise have been retrenched due to a fall in enrolments, have been retained. As a result, the average class size at primary level has been reduced to 24 and the pupil teacher ratio at primary level has been reduced to 17.4:1, while at post-primary level the pupil teacher ratio has reduced to under 14:1.

The size of classes in individual schools is a matter, in the first instance, for the authorities of the school concerned. At primary level, the system for allocating teachers to primary schools is based on ensuring an overall maximum class of 29 in each school. Where some classes in a school have class sizes of greater than 29, it is generally because a decision has been taken at local level to use their teaching resources to have some smaller numbers in other classes. At post-primary level, class size depends on the particular subject, the number of pupils opting to take the subject and the level at which it is being taken.

Class sizes vary considerably across education programmes and subject areas. Class sizes are typically larger in the case of the core subjects of English, Irish and mathematics. Subject areas such as the sciences and modern European languages generally have average class sizes of less than the programme averages.

Subject provision, subject choices and class sizes are influenced by a combination of factors such as school size, timetabling decisions, teacher allocation, subject expertise and the length of the school day in addition to decisions made at individual school level on the basis of enrolments, ability levels of the pupils and programmes offered. While there has been an improvement in regard to class sizes, further improvements will be made in future in line with Government policy.

The poor record of the State in catering for the educational needs of special needs pupils in the past has been raised in this House and elsewhere. The Government has tackled this issue head on and our achievements in this area speak for themselves. Significant increases in teaching resources have been approved at primary level. There are currently more than 2,600 resource teachers and 1,500 learning support teachers in our primary schools. There are 1,000 teachers in special schools and 600 teachers in special classes. Nearly 6,000 special needs assistants are employed and significantly increased financial provision has been made for them for specialised equipment and materials.

Increased provision has also been made at post-primary level. In the current year provision is being made for 1,259 whole-time equivalent resource teachers and 628 special needs assistants. In the current school year, approximately 17,650 students with special educational needs are in receipt of resource teacher and-or special needs assistant service support. This compares with approximately 12,500 students in 2003-04, 6,000 students in 2002-03 and 3,500 students in 2001-02. In the 1997-98 school year, an estimated 1,600 students with special needs were being supported.

Significant additional funding has been allocated by my Department in respect of school transport in recent years. The cost of school transport has more than doubled since 1997, from €49.5 million to more than €116 million in the current year.

Unfortunately, I will not be able to cover the other issues with which I wished to deal. In recent years there has been a particular focus, as Members are aware, on the provision for pupils in disadvantaged areas.

The Government has every reason to be proud of its record in investing in new school buildings, as any Member who is considering the issue fairly would immediately admit. There is no escaping the reality that since coming into office, the Government has placed the highest priority——

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State should simply supply her script.

Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——on the improvement of school buildings and we will continue to do that.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I wish to share time with Deputies Penrose, Upton and O'Sullivan.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am already into injury time.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There are 15 minutes in this time slot.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

A famous American economist and political commentator who ended his career, among other things, as ambassador to India where he had a first-hand vision of what he talked about, famously described the United States in 1950s as the affluent society. He coined a phrase that aptly describes the Government's approach to this Republic. It is one of private affluence and public squalor.

In the by-elections which were fought and which the Government lost — if the Minister of State continues to make speeches like the one she made the Government will lose every by-election and the general election because she has not heard a word we said——

Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We all know that a Government party loss in a by-election does not mean a loss for it in a general election, as has been proved in every general election in modern times.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That intervention means we have 30 seconds of injury time.

I walked past motor cars worth €50,000, €60,000 or €70,000 to meet crying parents in affluent Kildare who could not get their children into a school. One aspect of the public sector is that no matter how rich one is, and happily there are now many wealthy, well-doing and well-paid people in our society, there are some things money cannot buy. It cannot buy a special needs teacher for one's child, but if one is paying taxes, one can get access to that resource, but the Government is not ensuring that kind of provision.

There is no coherent planning. The Minister of State has read out a load of statistics about increases but if one were to apply the same logic, the increase in the labour market and in the population make the increases in the provision of additional teachers and special needs assistants meaningless. We are simply running to stand still.

I invite the Minister of State to examine the constituencies where there is natural and real population growth and recognise the chaos. There is nobody in the Department of Education and Science linking the granting of planning permissions that generate the demand for housing with the growth in population.

I will make one point because my time is limited. I invite the Minister of State to request the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to introduce a planning regulation that would provide that if there is not adequate school provision in the area in which it is proposed to grant planning permission, along with adequate draining facilities, roads etc., such planning permission would not be granted. Houses are being built. It is not rocket science to work out that if planning permission for houses is granted in year one and construction starts in year two that in year five or six the patter of little feet will come knocking on the door of the local primary school. There is no joined up thinking in regard to that.

I could say much more but I am sharing time with my colleagues. There is no proper planning. The Department of Education and Science is an island. It is surrounded by private affluence and is engaged in public squalor.

Willie Penrose (Westmeath, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I compliment my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, for bringing this important matter to the floor of the Dáil. On 26 January, I had occasion to raise this matter with the Minister for Education for Science and I forewarned her about this problem, endorsing what my colleague, Deputy Quinn, said. I requested that a meeting be held of Westmeath County Council comprising forward planners and representatives of Education and Science to get a grip on this problem, but nothing happened. The problem is so bad in Mullingar and the surrounding areas that the county council wrote to the Minister on 29 March, following an intensive discussion, raised by my colleague, councillor Dan McCarthy, at Westmeath County Council, about the availability of primary school places. I also raised this issue. Someone wrote that script for the Minister of State. There are 21 primary schools, including a Gaelscoil, and a new multidenominational school which commenced operation last September, serving Mullingar. However, one must travel to the border of Longford and Meath. It is a wonder that whoever wrote the script did not tell the people of Mullingar to go to County Longford. Whoever wrote it does not know his or her geography. People who do not have public transport must travel to schools in Ballinagore, Ballynacargy, Castletowngeoghegan and Loughnavalley. They must travel in the opposite direction to where they work. What sort of a society is this? The Government can find money for everything but it cannot find money for schools. Deputy Quinn is correct about the American economists, whom I have often quoted.

What about Kinnegad and this great aspiration? It is all nonsense. I do not believe Government programmes. There was a commitment to ensure that the average size of classes for children under the age of nine would be below the best international standard of 20:1. Let us talk about St. Etchen's in Kinnegad, which is on the main N4-N6 route. There is a rapidly expanding population. There are 375 pupils on the roll, with 13 teachers, which is an average pupil-teacher ratio of 29:1. Every class from infants to first class has more than 30 pupils, which exceeds best international guidelines. So much for all the talk about education. The Government does not care a whit about anything. It would prefer to reduce tax for the wealthy so that it can say it does not have the money to build important infrastructure for young people. Lip service is being paid to education and the economic productive that derives therefrom, but what about ordinary young people from poor families? Should they not get the best start, the best classrooms and the best pupil-teacher ratio so they can learn and become the pioneers of tomorrow? These are not rich people with cars who can travel miles to class.

Deputy Quinn is correct that the people are waiting for the Minister in the long grass. It is an insult to say that one school had 50 pupils less in the past five years. Of course there were 50 pupils less because there are 36 or 37 pupils in the classes. If health and safety standards applied, how could one have 37 or 38 pupils in a class? These classes had to be reduced to 30 pupils. There is great anger in Mullingar over the nature and tenor of that reply.

The senior Minister admitted in Tullamore that she had reached the target in 2004 which was projected for Mullingar and its environs for 2008, which is four years out of date. The Minister should ask the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, for funding. I am sure he is not as blinkered as the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, who created the problem with his right-wing ideology, which is grounded on the conservative forces that destroyed Britain. Let that not happen in Ireland. Let us give our young people a chance through the education system.

Mary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this debate. I compliment my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, on tabling the motion.

I have many examples in my constituency of the kind of problems to which Deputy Penrose referred. However, I want to use Harold's Cross school as a particular example. I attended a meeting there last evening when most of the teachers, resource teachers and a large number of parents were present. The school, which urgently requires an additional teacher for the coming academic year, is in the extraordinary situation of having almost 80% of pupils from areas that are designated as disadvantaged. This is the catchment area, but the school is located in an area that is not classified as disadvantaged. The school, pupils, teachers, parents and special needs assistants bear the brunt of not being designated disadvantaged and they miss out on the bonuses this would afford them.

In the coming academic year, the teachers will have to cope with an average teacher-pupil ratio of 1:29.4, which is being very specific in their accounting. There will be 37 pupils in a mixed fourth and fifth class and 36 in a mixed fifth and sixth class. They also have a number of students with special needs, pupils with serious behavioural problems as well as overcrowding. Unfortunately, this is not unique to Harold's Cross. The integration of pupils with special needs into mainstream education was encouraged. Teachers took this on board on the understanding that the facilities, resources and back-up would be available to them to offer good quality education to all pupils.

When the Minister points out, as she does frequently, that the number of resource teachers has never been greater, she should also acknowledge that the need has never been greater. This arises partly from the fact that we all bought into the idea of mainstreaming and that initiative was approved and supported. The Minister acknowledged to me in a recent letter that priority would be given to pupils with special needs, those from disadvantaged areas and those in junior classes. I am asking the Minister, on behalf of Harold's Cross primary school, Bluebell primary school, Mater Dei, the primary schools in Ballyfermot, Crumlin, Drimnagh and throughout my constituency, and many more, to deliver on that commitment before a new generation of children miss out again on the opportunity for a decent education. If the mantra we hear all the time that education is the way out of poverty and social exclusion is correct, it is time for the Minister to ensure the facilities are in place to deliver on these promises and the value of education.

Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does the Deputy agree with an increase in tax to provide further funding for education? That was an interesting suggestion.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy without interruption.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.