Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Minister for Defence the position with respect to the availability of St. Bricin's Military Hospital to the Minister for Health and Children; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12613/05]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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As the House will be aware, earlier this week I stated my desire to make the use of facilities at St. Bricin's Military Hospital available to the public health service. This offer includes the three specific areas for the treatment of civilian patients identified back in 2001, but also includes any possible options that the Health Service Executive might wish to put to the Department of Defence for the use of medical and health care facilities at St. Bricin's.

On Monday last, 18 April, representatives from the Health Service Executive visited St. Bricin's hospital to inspect the facilities there. I inspected the hospital facility earlier this week. Further detailed examinations and surveys are now in process. The three possible areas identified in 2001 for treatment of civilian patients in St. Bricin's were acute day case surgery; the provision of step down inpatient services from acute hospital care, such as intensive nursing of the chronically ill, convalescent services for the hospitalised elderly etc.; and the use of the St. Bricin's complex for general community-based health care and social care services.

When the question of the potential use of St. Bricin's hospital for treatment of civilian patients was last looked at in 2000-2001, a detailed feasibility study was carried out into the first of the three identified possible uses, acute day case ophthalmic surgery, as a pilot project. That feasibility study indicated that this project would not have been cost effective for the Northern Area Health Board. In the event, the Northern Area Health Board secured access to suitable facilities elsewhere in Dublin.

Since that time St. Bricin's hospital has undergone a refurbishment programme, including fire safety works and rewiring, largely focused on meeting health and safety criteria. Inpatient capacity at St. Bricin's Hospital has fluctuated over recent years due to refurbishment works and the use of some wards for medical storage. In reply to a parliamentary question in April last year, my predecessor indicated that the then functional capacity was 48, with an inpatient occupancy rate of 20% of capacity. It should be borne in mind that the Army medical corps itself does not have the staffing resources to operate a public health service. The possibility that the provision of treatment for civilian patients at St. Bricin's might raise some legal questions will also need to be examined.

St. Bricin's Military Hospital is the logistics base facility of the medical corps.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

Its functions are to provide a primary care facility for the Dublin garrisons, an occupational medical service base for the Defence Forces, a limited inpatient capability for the Defence Forces both in Ireland and in support of overseas deployment and a medical logistics base for the provision of medical equipment, pharmaceutical supplies and strategic medical supplies for the Defence Forces. The St. Bricin's complex also provides accommodation for the Army pensions board.

I am now awaiting receipt of the considered opinion of the Health Service Executive arising from its inspections of St. Bricin's Hospital. I will positively consider its proposals for all possible public health care use of St. Bricin's facilities, and my Department is available to do everything possible to co-operate with it.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I understand the Minister may have won an award earlier in the week. It is a gimmick of the year award and I am sure it was based on the suggestion—

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise in Question Time.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister on this gimmick of the year award and——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not appropriate to congratulate the Minister. The Deputy should just ask the question.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I suggest he gets a CD into his ministerial Mercedes and listens to music on the way to Limerick, rather than coming up with these ideas.

Did the Minister for Health and Children put the suggestion to him or did he come up with it, himself? If it was put to him or when he came up with the idea, did he not think of asking the director of the medical corps if it was actually possible to use St. Bricin's? If he did not, why not? If he did, would he agree that the director, Colonel Collins, would have told him what he said in his article in the Irish Medical Times, dated 7 March 2005, to the effect that it simply could not be used as a civilian facility in its current condition? He said a working group had investigated the possibility but found it was not feasible.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know what Deputy Timmins is talking about. As regards gimmick of the year award, I understand I was granted heckler of the year award, which is a sufficiently dubious distinction in itself.

This is not a gimmick. I have been inundated with requests and people talking to me about St. Bricin's in view of the accident and emergency departments crisis. We all agree there is a crisis. St. Bricin's is a fine facility within easy distance of the Mater hospital and people believe it should be made available. I have had requests literally from the day I came into the Department. I have spoken to a number of people, including the Minister for Health and Children. She spoke to me about it two months ago. Various people from all sides of the political divide have asked me if it could be made available. I have always made it clear that it is my job and my decision whether to make it available. If the Department of Health and Children wants to use it in any capacity it is up to the Department to spend money on it. How much use it gets out of it will depend on how much money is spent.

Deputy Timmins is right. There was a feasibility study in 2001, but that was only in relation to one particular use. The study group found that it was not cost effective, because it would have cost €3 million at the time, for a limited throughput of patients. Since then about €2 million has been spent on rewiring etc., which was a substantial part of the problem identified at the time. As regards Colonel Collins, I have no dispute with what he said. He said in the Irish Medical Times that it could not be used without expenditure being incurred. That is precisely what I have said all the time. It is up to the Department of Health and Children. The Department is examining it as we speak. I understand architects are there from the Department of Health and Children. They will decide to what extent it can be used or how much they want to spend or can afford, and whether it is cost effective. I am only making it available on the basis that the Department of Health and Children spends money on it. The use it will get from the facility depends on how much it is prepared to spend.

Earlier in the week I was shown around St. Bricin's by several people, including Colonel Collins. He, as the expert in the area, referred to various figures for putting the ward into public use. The air-conditioning in the operating theatre has to be adjusted to ensure it can be used. Our engineering section reckons this will cost X amount. The figures are relative modest when placed in the context of the total health services budget and the moneys spent on acquiring private nursing homes for step-down facilities. During the week I read a newspaper report that claimed that it had been decided the facilities could not be used, but that is rubbish. The Department of Health and Children has not yet come back to me on the proposal. I believe the facilities there can be used and I am confident they will be.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister consult the medical director before he made the announcement? How much will it cost to get the 20 beds in operation? In a bid to save funds, will he tell the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children that there are 13 beds in a ward in Loughlinstown Hospital that are not used?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Approximately 100 beds could be used in St. Bricin's as there are only four patients there. Deputy Timmins may be concerned about the military holding what it has and the interests of the Defence Forces being served. However, PDFORRA, which represents enlisted troops, issued a statement welcoming the opening up of St. Bricin's for accident and emergency facilities.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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As does the Fine Gael Party, if it is practicable.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, along the lines I suggested. All Ministers can hold on to the empires in their Departments. However, if one is lying on a hospital trolley, different considerations apply. If beds are available, they must be used. I encourage the Department of Health and Children to take up the use of St. Bricin's facilities. It will be more cost effective than the measures being taken to resolve the crisis in accident and emergency facilities.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What will it cost?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The last costing I received was for €3 million.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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For 200 beds.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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No, 25 beds and the operating theatre. That will be 25 more free beds in the Mater.