Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach if his Department has statistics that indicate the numbers of full-time and part-time farmers in the 1950s, in the early 1990s and in 2004; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6985/05]

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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Comparable figures are not available on the numbers of full-time and part-time farmers for the full period from the 1950s to 2004.

Up to 1991 the focus was on the land holding, without distinguishing between the holder's full-time or part-time involvement in farming. In 1950, there were 317,900 agricultural holdings of at least one acre. In 1960, the figure was 290,300. By 1970, there were 279,500 and in 1980, there were 263,600 holdings of more than one acre.

In the 1991 census of agriculture, a new system was introduced which focused on the operational aspects of farming. All farms of more than one hectare, about 2.5 acres, were surveyed. It distinguished whether the farmer was involved full-time, that is, his or her sole occupation was farming, or part-time, that is, farming was a major or subsidiary occupation for him or her. For 1991, the total number of farms was 169,900, of which 124,700 were full-time and 45,200 were part-time.

The most recent available figures are from the 2003 farm structures survey, indicating a total of 135,100 farms — 77,900 full-time and 57,200 part-time. The new system introduced in 1991 would suggest an approximate comparable total of 193,000 farms in 1980, of which 158,000 were full-time and 35,000 were part-time.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I asked a statistical question on the basis that Teagasc has given figures that I assumed were based on CSO figures. Is the Minister of State in possession of all the facts in regard to Government figures? Perhaps he will need to give me the reply again when he has had an opportunity to discuss with Teagasc the real situation which I understand has resulted in a couple of thousand farmers moving out of farming every year. Does he have any reason not to give me those figures? Does he recall that Fianna Fáil had a stated objective of retaining a maximum number of people on the land and would he like to say whether that objective has been abandoned in the light of the information——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a question for another Minister. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, this is purely a statistical question.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am looking for statistics but I am not getting them.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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A policy question is for the line Minister.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Forgive me for straying into policy, but the statistical question I want answered has not been answered here. The Minister of State has informed me he does not have the figures. The figures are available and he does not have to go very far to obtain them. I would like an explanation as to why he does not have an answer to the question I have asked in the Dáil.

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, the relevant Minister, in this case the Minister for Agriculture and Food will pass to the Deputy any further information the Deputy requires. In regard to the figures, as I explained in the reply, the modus operandi changed in 1991. I would be pleased to pass to Deputy Sargent any additional information in my possession, such as briefing notes. I have precise figures for all of the years, some of which I have already communicated to him. I have attempted to make comparable figures from 1980 on the basis that the system changed from one acre to one hectare.

The figures for 1991, when the system changed, and later years, are not directly comparable with those for earlier years, as the earlier figures included a significant number of inactive land holdings without cash crops or livestock in addition to smaller or more marginal units. In other words, every possible parcel of land was included in the figures on those occasions. We have more pertinent figures since 1991 when the system changed and these can also be used to make comparisons.

The officials who supplied the figures in the reply have endeavoured to translate the system as it was in 1980 into the updated system. The figure for 1980 was 158,000 full-time farmers and 35,000 part-time farmers. The figures clearly show that the number of people on the land has declined. I have no difficulty in sharing with the Deputy any of the information contained in the back-up material. If Deputy Sargent wishes to have additional information I am sure the Minister for Agriculture and Food will be pleased to supply it to him.

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Has the Minister of State any further breakdown on a provincial, county or constituency basis of the numbers he has just given?

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have such information in this file. However, if it is available, I will be happy to pass it on to the Deputy. I presume information of that nature is available. I will ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food to take note of the Deputy's comments and the information will be passed on.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister of State statistical information, not only on the numbers actively engaged in agriculture, but also the number of people, including children, dependent on it as the primary source of income provision? How many citizens are wholly or in part dependent on agriculture as a primary source of income and provision for life's needs? Will the Minister of State indicate whether that degree of detail is available from the CSO figures——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is going outside the scope of this particular question.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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With respect to the Ceann Comhairle, I am within the scope of the question and want to know if that information is available. Any evaluation of this type is valuable only when we appreciate the number of people dependent on agriculture to provide for life's needs. It would be outside the scope of the question to recognise the significant——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy please ask a question?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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——and dramatic decline. It would be interesting to know whether the Government has any strategies to arrest that decline. I will probably be told that this is not the responsibility of the Minister of State.

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is indeed straying into new territory. I am conscious from my involvement in the World Trade Organisation talks, for example, and discussions on the Common Agricultural Policy reforms etc. that a wealth of information is required and must be examined in terms of what happens to these farms. Many of them are changing to alternative usage as a result of the CAP reforms. The Deputy's question obviously relates to the number of farms. I do not have data on the number of dependants except to say that we are talking about family run, not commercial farms. I understand that approximately 200 commercial concerns were excluded from the figures supplied to me on this occasion. There is also the distinction between full-time and part-time agriculture. As I said in my answer, full-time means farming is the sole occupation of a farmer, whether male or female. The part-time figure relates to where a farmer has a major or subsidiary occupation from that source.

Even though I do not come from a farming family, I am fully aware of the dramatic changes in agriculture over the years in places such as my native east Galway, and that numbers have decreased substantially. I have witnessed that taking place over decades. The information I have is substantial, but if there is anything additional which the Deputy requires, he should let me know. Questions have been raised in the House and I can follow up on those.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State mentioned the difference between part-time and full-time farmers. Is a proportion of income taken into account in terms of what constitutes part-time versus full-time? As regards the 200 commercial concerns, perhaps the Minister of State will explain the basis on which this is measured. Are families still involved in some of those commercial concerns, as I imagine they are? Has the Minister of State the figures for the ratio of full-time to part-time farmers from the 1980s in comparison with the statistics available for 2004?

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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On that last question, the full-time figure for the 1980s was 188,000 with 35,000 the part-time number. If that is added to the list, obviously there has been a fall in numbers between 1991 and 2003.

The Deputy asked about the proportion of income involved but my information refers to farming being the sole occupation or a major or subsidiary occupation on a part-time basis. The figures for those in farming on a part-time basis were 45,200 in 1991, 52,900 in 1993, 51,800 in 1995, 49,300 in 1997, 62,600 in 2000 and 57,200 in 2003. With the exception of 1997 and 2000, there has been an increase in part-time farming.

In response to the question on commercial farms, I am talking about family-run farms, excluding commercial concerns and institutions such as agricultural colleges. Commercial farms are those where a company produces mushrooms or other products on an intensive basis on farms that are not family-run. There are only 200 such farms so it is clear what we are talking about in that regard. If the Deputy would like more information, I will pass it on.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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That answer was so convoluted as to be meaningless, with talk of changes in systems and the collection of figures. Does the Minister of State accept that if the figures were presented clearly, they would indicate an exodus of thousands of people from the land and farming as a way of life every year? The figures exist and the Minister for Agriculture and Food gives them to me from time to time on the acreage of any crop or on any farming enterprise.

The Minister of State indicated 1980 as the change-over point but in 1970, 57,000 hectares of land were used to grow potatoes and this fell to 12,500 hectares by 2004. In the past five years, 20% of growers have left the business and more are leaving this year. That is a pattern.

Will the Minister of State come back and give us clear figures that are not confused by references to family farms and commercial farms? Since when is a family farm not commercial? It would not last long if it did not operate on a commercial basis. We must cut through the statistical jargon and tell people the truth, that the Government has done a huge disservice and stood over an amazing exodus from the land.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is making a statement. He should ask a simple question related to the question he initially asked.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am asking for an answer and I am not getting one. I will ask this question again on another day and I want to receive clear figures that are not confused by dates or differences between family-run and commercial farms. We want to know how many people are dependent on agriculture each year.

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy want the CSO to transfer the old figures into the new system, where acres were measured but now hectares are used? I stated in my reply that inactive farms were measured. It is a fair point. If it can translate that information into the new regime, as it were, it should be done. I will take the matter up with the CSO.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Livelihoods.

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I was Minister of State with responsibility for trade for five years and I was involved in the World Trade Organisation talks in which we tried to deal not only with the developing world but also with our own agricultural requirements. I worked closely with the Minister for Agriculture and Food in that context. The Government has consistently been conscious of the need to protect small farmers. Part of that agenda was trying to deal with——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister of State is going well outside the scope of the question.

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but the Deputy has suggested that the Government has been negligent about small farms. One of the many initiatives was to try to promote agritourism and so forth. There was and is a consistent effort by the Government to deal with that aspect of farming.

I will be glad to take up the Deputy's point with the CSO to see if anything can be done to draw better parallels between the situation in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and the current regime. I will refer back to the Deputy.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister of State have statistics on the number of full-time and part-time farmers who have applied for the rural environment protection scheme? Is there a greater take-up of the scheme on the part of full-time farmers or part-time farmers? Has the Minister of State statistics to show that full-time farmers are expanding their farms by purchasing more land? Are there statistics to show that part-time farmers are reducing stock, particularly those in the beef sector? Obviously, part-time farmers would not be involved in dairying if they were working. The reduction in stock would have an adverse effect on the beef industry.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will allow the Minister of State to answer the questions on statistics but some of the Deputy's questions are more appropriate for the Minister for Agriculture and Food.

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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They are. I do not have figures on the REPS or on the expansion of farms. They are not part of my remit. The questions are quite technical and would have to be referred to the Minister for Agriculture and Food. However, one can glean from the figures that farms are being expanded given that the numbers are reducing incrementally each year in the case of full-time farmers. Obviously, amalgamation of farms must be taking place. The questions should be referred to the Department of Agriculture and Food.

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Does the Minister of State have information on employees who are employed on farms? If there is a dramatic reduction in the number of farmers, it must be 100% greater with regard to the number of people employed on farms. Does the Minister of State have statistics on that?

Tom Kitt (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not. The question was about full-time and part-time farmers. I do not have figures about other people employed in the sector. I can try to get them for the Deputy. According to my officials, a farm is defined as a single unit both technically and economically which has a single management and which produces agricultural products. These questions were asked previously of my predecessor. Any items which have been raised and on which we can be of assistance, I will be glad to pursue.