Dáil debates

Tuesday, 8 March 2005

Ceisteanna — Questions.

Dublin-Monaghan Bombings.

2:30 pm

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the further inquiries being undertaken by Mr. Justice Barron; the further action to be taken by his Department on foot of reports already issued; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2403/05]

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach when he expects to receive reports from Mr. Justice Barron on the outstanding areas within his remit; the action he has taken arising from the reports already submitted by Mr. Justice Barron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3503/05]

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach if he has raised the issue of the British Government's failure to co-operate with the Barron inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in his recent meetings with the British Prime Minister; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3561/05]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 9: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the commission of inquiry headed by Mr. Justice Barron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4637/05]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 10: To ask the Taoiseach the action he has taken on reports received from Mr. Justice Barron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6514/05]

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Question 11: To ask the Taoiseach his views on the failure of the British Government to co-operate in any meaningful way with the Barron inquiry; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7826/05]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take questions Nos. 6 to 11, inclusive, together.

I thank the members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights for their work in preparing the final report on Mr. Justice Barron's report into the Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973, which has been published. I am grateful to the sub-committee for the timely way in which it prepared its report and for providing the bereaved families with an opportunity to make submissions to the sub-committee and to appear before it.

The Government will consider the recommendations of the joint committee in due course. I received a letter from the Prime Minister Mr. Blair regarding the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974 and the Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973, which I passed to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, in view of the committee's deliberations on Mr. Justice Barron's report.

In that letter dated 10 January 2005, the Prime Minister said:

The Government welcomed the establishment of the Barron inquiry and cooperated with it as fully as possible, conducting a thorough search of all government records and, consistent with its responsibilities for protecting national security and the lives of individuals, ensuring that all potentially relevant information that was uncovered, including intelligence information, was shared with the investigation.

The Government notes Mr Justice Barron's conclusions that, while allegations of collusion between British security forces and the perpetrators of the bombing were not fanciful, he had not seen any evidence to corroborate it and it could not be inferred, even as a probability.

In the circumstances, the Government concludes that no further benefit to the public interest would accrue from the establishment of an inquiry, within the United Kingdom, to re-examine these allegations.

On the matter of British cooperation with Justice Barron's extended inquiry into the Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973, it was our judgement at the time of Justice Barron's approach that, given our experience of the scale of the task in identifying relevant material in the Dublin-Monaghan and Dundalk bombings, it would not be possible to conduct another major search through our records for material relating to the 1972/73 bombings within the timescale of the inquiry.

Notwithstanding this response, I would like to see a mechanism that would allow for independent scrutiny and assessment of material and files held by the British authorities. I reiterated this view in London at my meeting with the Prime Minister Mr. Blair on 1 February and I raised the matter again at my meeting with the Prime Minister on Thursday last.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, also raised the issue of British co-operation with inquiries in this jurisdiction with the Secretary of State Mr. Murphy at last week's meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference and the Secretary of State said that a response would be forthcoming to the letter he received from the Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights.

I have received Mr. Justice Barron's report on the murder of Seamus Ludlow and I expect that, following necessary consideration, the report will be forwarded to the Oireachtas in the coming weeks. My Department is making the necessary arrangements for the establishment of the commission of investigation into matters relating to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974 and I expect these to be finalised and the commission established in the coming weeks.

I understand that Mr. Justice Barron expects to complete his report on the Dundalk bombing of December 1975 and the Castleblaney bombing of 1976 and other incidents in April.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach recall that the final report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, on Mr. Justice Barron's inquiry into the Dublin-Monaghan bombings of 1974, recommended that a public tribunal of inquiry be established in Northern Ireland and-or Britain? This report states that this represents the best opportunity for success.

The Taoiseach quoted a response from the Prime Minister. Is that the response sent on 10 January?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Taoiseach for that. Does the Taoiseach agree that response represents a point blank refusal on the part of the British Prime Minister and government to co-operate with the calls of the joint committee? When the Taoiseach said he raised these matters with the British Prime Minister since 10 January, did he reply in writing to Prime Minister Blair's letter of 10 January and in what terms? Has he reflected either in writing or orally on the fact that the joint Oireachtas committee deplores the fact that there has been no co-operation from the British side with Justice Barron's inquiry and with the deliberations of the committee? On the commission of investigation into the Garda handling of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974, will the Taoiseach widen the terms of reference of same to cover the Garda handling of bombings in 1972 and 1973, including the Crinnion, Wyman and Littlejohn cases, as recommended by the committee? Has the Taoiseach considered the recommendation of the committee that if there is continual British refusal to establish an inquiry, the Irish Government should take a case to the European Court of Human Rights? I ask him to do that.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked a number of questions. On the 1974 bombings, we again took up that issue directly with the British Prime Minister, restating our previous position. That was done in my original letter of 17 November, to which the Prime Minister replied on 10 January, and again we put our position and made a statement to him on 1 February. I raised the matter last week.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was that in writing?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we provided a report by hand——

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Taoiseach sure of the terms?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin should allow the Taoiseach to answer his question. Six Members have submitted questions on the matter.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister, Deputy Ahern, made those points again last week at the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. The terms have not changed since 17 November. We are still making the same points.

On the second question, everyone felt that the best way to deal with the issue was to get a Cory-type investigation, an investigation that emanated from the Weston Park talks. It was felt that kind of investigation, based in Northern Ireland, would be the best way to deal with the issue from the point of view of being able to get witnesses, papers and so on. As the Deputy said, the British do not feel the same on that matter. We said that we would set up a committee of investigation to deal with the issues within our domain. As I said in my reply, that matter must come before the House formally. Work on the membership and chairmanship of the committee is well advanced and the matter will come before the House in due course.

If we do not make progress with the British Government and if it does not move on these issues, which appears likely — we have not given up yet — we must decide on whether to go to the European Court of Justice. We have not considered that option, but we will do so if we cannot get the type of investigation we want.

The Deputy's last question referred to extending the terms of the commission of inquiry to cover the Littlejohn and other cases. That issue is being examined. The original joint Oireachtas committee which examined the Barron report on the 1974 bombings recommended the establishment of a commission of inquiry, to which we agreed. It asked us to examine the issues in this jurisdiction, including the specific aspects of the Garda investigation at the time, the reason the investigation wound up so quickly and the Garda did not follow up on specific leads, and information relating to the movements of the white van, a man who stayed in the Four Courts Hotel and the alleged sighting in Dublin of a British army corporal. These will all be investigated by the commission. The issue of the missing documentation, which has been raised by Deputy Costello, will also form part of the investigation. Documentation that is unaccounted for, explanations for the missing documentation, where the missing documentation has been located and if the systems currently in place are adequate to prevent a recurrence will all be investigated. We have agreed with this recommendation and arrangements are being made.

We are also looking at including in that, although we have not finally decided, the issue of the missing Clones files, the details of the Crinnion, Wyman and Littlejohn brothers case and the question of whether forensic evidence was properly followed up. It seems sensible to me but we have not formally made a decision that they should all be in the one committee of investigation because they are all outstanding issues from the report. That is the updated position.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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When will Mr. Justice Barron complete his remit and finalise his reports? The Garda Commissioner gave a commitment to the Oireachtas committee when it dealt with this matter that he would assist the families in terms of taking them through the investigation files of the victims in this State. Has a Garda officer been appointed for that purpose?

Is the Taoiseach aware that a multi-million pound fund has been announced today in Northern Ireland with a view to investigating unsolved murders in that jurisdiction and that it is envisaged it will involve bringing in policemen from outside the state? Does the Taoiseach see any merit in establishing a similar fund in this jurisdiction to investigate these and other unsolved murders by paramilitary organisations from whatever side they come?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Justice Barron has two outstanding issues to complete in his work — the bombings in Castleblayney and Dundalk — and he will complete them in April. That will be the end of his work.

The answer to the question on the Garda Commissioner is "Yes" and I welcome the statement he made when he addressed this issue. The Garda has now established liaison arrangements with victims and those have improved a great deal from what they were, as we know from what we heard in the committee. A member of the force is available at Garda Headquarters to talk to families and this is a significant movement from the previous situation.

The proposal in Northern Ireland to appoint a victims commissioner is an interesting development and we are examining the consultation paper provided. It details the proposed role and responsibility of the commissioner. When Ken Bloomfield and John Wilson were working on this, we had set up a fund and argued that a similar position would be helpful in Northern Ireland. At that time we argued that any new initiative should be centred on victims and their families. At the time, John Wilson was very strong that it was what it should be about and that it should be directed to help the victims in a humane way when dealing with some of the welfare issues. We have made progress in recent years in addressing the needs of victims North and South. The memorial fund in Northern Ireland and the remembrance fund commission in this jurisdiction are up and running and I pay tribute to the work of those involved, including Ken Bloomfield and John Wilson, in setting it up. The Secretary of State announced plans last week, to which Deputy Rabbitte referred, for a broadly based consultation and involvement with individuals, victims groups and communities. I welcome these consultations to recognise the importance of cross-community support and the involvement for any future process.

We had a debate in 1997 and 1998, before and after the Good Friday Agreement, on whether we should have a truth commission. At that stage all sides had agreed that it was not the way to go. Deputy Sargent has continually raised this issue in recent years and I have given those views.

It is well worth looking at these proposals because, as Deputy Rabbitte is aware, an endless number of groups have been formed which are concerned with various atrocities. As time passes, instead of the healing process setting in, bitterness arises. I can understand that having met numerous groups of families. The more they see one case getting prominence, the more they feel they have not served their families' interest. I understand that and say it in the most respectful way because every death and atrocity from whatever side or quarter is enormous. If we were to find a way to deal with all these, cases we would still be here talking about them in 100 years' time. I do not think anybody wants that, not least the families.

It is useful to see if there is some way that people can lodge their submissions in these cases. I am certainly open to that; otherwise we will never get closure on issues. I do not know what is the best way to do it. The South African way proved to be an effective short means, but I do not know if it solved the problems for people. It certainly seems to have done so, but perhaps somebody will correct me some years from now and say that has not been the experience.

Something must happen. I have made the point to the Secretary of State, Paul Murphy, on a number of occasions and to the Northern Ireland Office that we must find some process. It is not a financial issue but one in which the fact that people know in their heart that something was never investigated means that it goes on to create an irritant. Like all these issues, when one looks at them in hindsight it is easy to ask how investigations could have closed so quickly or, in many cases, how investigations never started due to the sheer pressure of cases at the time. That is an issue we must examine and we are engaged in looking at the consultation paper.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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This is injury time.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is now 3.20 p.m. The Chair has no——

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Ceann Comhairle should have given the Taoiseach a nod.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair has no control over replies.