Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 9, motion re leave to withdraw the Postal (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2001 and the Law of the Sea (Repression of Piracy) Bill 2001 [Seanad]; No. 15, Health (Amendment) Bill 2005 — Committee and Remaining Stages; and No. 16, Disability Bill 2004 — Second Stage (resumed). Private Members' business will be No. 35, Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2005 — Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted on the adjournment of Private Members' business, which shall be taken for 90 minutes at 7 p.m. or on the conclusion of No. 15, whichever is the later, and the proceedings on the Second Stage thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 9 March 2005. No. 9 shall be decided without debate. Committee and Remaining Stages of No. 15 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in respect of amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are three proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9 agreed?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not agree with it. The notice sent from the Government in respect of the Postal (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2001 makes a valid point about the necessity to discuss sensitive issues. Given that the issue of the postal services is before the Labour Court, I can understand the reason for the request, but will the Taoiseach instruct his Whip to make arrangements to have a full-scale debate in the House on postal services, taking into account An Post's social responsibility, its future funding arrangements and the employment potential and closure of many hundreds of rural post offices?

We were given no explanation why the withdrawal of the Law of the Sea (Repression of Piracy) Bill 2001 is necessary, other than that it is because of important legal issues that emerged in the international context. What does that mean? It seems that the European committee has challenged the definition of piracy in the Bill. We discussed piracy in respect of the payments taken illegally from hundreds of thousands of patients in long-stay institutions. That is a definition of piracy. I do not agree with the proposal.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's party started that piracy.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Soft on pirates and the causes of piracy. The postal workers want to know whether the commitment to the ESOP is still Government policy. That is the net issue.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are discussing whether the motion should be taken without debate. The Deputy's point does not arise.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am explaining to the Ceann Comhairle why I am opposing its being taken without debate. The considerable problem faced by postal workers is that they do not know where the Government stands on the question of an ESOP for the workers in the industry. To determine whether we should call a vote on this matter, will the Taoiseach state whether the commitment to an ESOP for the postal workers still stands? That question is in order.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Further explanation will be required if we are to accept what is proposed regarding No. 9. The withdrawal of the Postal (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2001 is certainly inexplicable given the great need to debate the post office system and the need for it to be reformed so it will not be shrinking by the week, as is now the case.

In light of an announcement by the United States that it will have more ships containing toxic material crossing the Atlantic to Europe, posing considerable environmental risks, it seems strange that we are withdrawing the Law of the Sea (Repression of Piracy) Bill 2001, which could assist us in preventing possible environmental damage. I do not accept the proposal to withdraw the two Bills because we have been given no adequate explanation therefor.

Have we been given the full list of Bills to be withdrawn? Will the Disability Bill be withdrawn given the ten fundamental flaws?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are dealing with two Bills.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Will the charities regulation Bill be withdrawn given that it seems that it was never intended that it would see the light of day?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I support the other Deputies in the arguments posed for not proceeding as the Taoiseach suggests. We need the opportunity to discuss the Postal (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2001 in full fora. I disagree very much in respect of the ESOP. It should not be a live option in the postal services or any other service. I make that very clear. However, I look forward to the opportunity to debate this properly on the floor of the Dáil. If the Taoiseach indicates, in response to Deputy Kenny's request, that he will facilitate same through the Whip, I would welcome it.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the Law of the Sea (Repression of Piracy) Bill 2001, Deputy Kenny has given the reason for its withdrawal. It is because of the possibility, in the international context, of litigation against the State by other member states of the European Union which challenge the definition of piracy. Therefore, it was considered advisable to withdraw the Bill. If we do not do so, we will be challenged on that basis.

A number of questions were asked on the Postal (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2001 and I will answer that of Deputy Rabbitte first. It is the Government's preferred policy to have an ESOP in An Post. Obviously, we must take into account the position of the company. Its situation has changed fairly dramatically in the past four years. According to the last figure I have seen, it has accumulated losses of over €90 million, close to €100 million. In its published accounts for 2003, its losses for that year amounted to €43 million. Obviously, the accounts for last year are not available.

As I said before in answer to questions, the implementation of the recovery strategy is contingent on agreement with the trade unions to radical restructuring. Negotiations have been ongoing for the past year in an effort to deal with the critical aspects. As I stated on several occasions, I appreciate the effort and commitment of all sides in trying to find a solution. The critical aspects will be moved shortly to the Labour Court for final determination. In light of the industrial relations issues that arose at that delicate and critical stage, it was thought that it would be prudent to defer consideration of the issues provided for in this Bill until a resolution is found to those industrial relations issues.

While postal issues have been debated in committee, Deputy Kenny has asked that they be debated in the House. I have no problem with that, but perhaps such a debate should be held after the Labour Court deliberations.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15 agreed?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am opposed to it. It is proposed to conclude Committee and Remaining Stages at 7 p.m.. The Health (Amendment) Bill 2005 is an important Bill which affects a great number of people. The Tánaiste has expressed concern that the Government is losing €2.5 million per week while it is not implemented. That is the basis on which the legislation fell previously. It was rushed through the House, and rushed legislation is bad legislation. I am not saying it should be kept in the House interminably, but speakers from many parties want to have their say on it and, therefore, consideration of the Bill should be extended beyond this evening.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I agree with Deputy Kenny. Part of the reason we are in this mess is the Government's resorting to the guillotine. The same parties that comprise the Government resorted to the guillotine in 2001 when the universal card was introduced. The Government again resorted to the guillotine at Christmas of last year when the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, compounded the original insult. The Government now wants to use it again because failure to enact the legislation is costing €2.5 million per week. Since Deputy Martin knew about this in 2001 he has cost the taxpayer €600 million. That is based on the Government calculation of €2.5 million per week.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Maybe the guillotine should be used on him.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is clear from the Supreme Court judgment that he knew about this problem in 2001. If not, he was asleep.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise at this stage.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It certainly does arise. Any Minister who costs the State €600 million——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are discussing the timing of this debate. What might be appropriate to the debate is not appropriate at this stage.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle says it does not arise. He wants us to make some errors again.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte should tot up what Deputy Howlin cost the State when he was Minister for Health.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Deputy Martin should do some tots himself. He is either asleep or incompetent.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should recall where it all began.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Government has had it too good for too long.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The figure is €2.5 million per week over 52 weeks for four years, which comes to €600 million. That is what Deputy Martin cost us, and that is only from the time we know the Government knew about this. I do not see how the Taoiseach can invite us again to guillotine a measure of which the Government has made such a mess on so many previous occasions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte should check the record.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I share Deputy Rabbitte's view that the guillotine is totally unacceptable. The Green Party opposes it on this Bill above all others. The Taoiseach said the Travers report would be available to us on Thursday. It is important that we can take that into account when deliberating on this matter, to avoid repeating by default the problem the Government created. I ask that the matter not be guillotined. We oppose a guillotine.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There will be very little time remaining between the conclusion of the Order of Business and 7 p.m. to address Committee, Report and Final Stages of this Bill. While the list of amendments, at 19, is not as long as might have been anticipated the time is inadequate to address these substantively on Committee and Report Stages.

I agree with my colleagues that the important issues at the heart of this Bill, namely, GP only medical cards and the introduction of a charge for a stay in a nursing home should not have been addressed in this way. This is particularly true given the Government's haste in regard to present and future charges for residents in nursing homes. The Government has not indicated how it will reimburse those who were illegally charged over the past three decades. Will the Taoiseach reconsider this proposal?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am disappointed the Taoiseach has not been in a position to grant the Leaders of the Opposition parties a copy of the Travers report. He said the Cabinet would require seven hours to read the report.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The matter has already been dealt with on two Leaders' Questions. It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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First, there is no meeting scheduled tomorrow for the Joint Committee on Health and Children. It normally meets at 9.30 a.m. but is now expected to meet at 11 a.m., half an hour after Taoiseach's Question Time begins here. The Taoiseach's move to have himself removed from the House for five weeks and not to have to answer questions is, therefore, valid.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Has the Deputy a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is International Women's Day and the front pages of the national newspapers carry the story of the release on bail of a convicted rapist. The judge in this case, for his own reasons made his decision. When will a judicial conduct and ethics Bill come before the House? The Taoiseach and everyone else said this House would receive a report on Aer Lingus before Christmas. The Taoiseach has now hounded a good man, Willie Walsh, out of office. Not only has his services been lost to Ireland, but he is now the chief executive of one of the major airlines in the world. When can we expect to see the air navigation Bill and the report from Aer Lingus?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The air navigation Bill will come before the House during this session. On the Aer Lingus report, there have been detailed discussions between the unions and management and the issues discussed should be completed shortly.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Where stands the Mullingar accord on that one?

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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We have already seen how the Taoiseach has contrived to evade scrutiny in the House for five weeks on a matter to which taxpayers are exposed to between €500 million——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The matter has already been discussed on two Leaders' Questions today. It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach make the report available to the committee tomorrow in this House? He said one will need six and a half to seven hours to read it. The committee will receive it at 10.30 a.m. and sit at 11 a.m., conveniently just after Leaders' Questions. Notwithstanding that, will the Taoiseach commit to the committee meeting in this House where we can discuss an issue that will impose a charge on taxpayers of up to €2 billion?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The matter has already been dealt with. These questions have been dealt with on Leaders' Questions.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am asking about the arranging of business. We have heard the excuse that it is costing us €2.5 million for every week. On that basis, the Minister, Deputy Martin, has received €600 million since 2001.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should confine himself to the question at this stage.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is a big enough issue for this House to discuss in plenary session. I am asking the Taoiseach one last time to commit to it being debated in this Chamber.

What is he fearful of? All his Front Bench have read it but no one on this side of the House has seen sight of it.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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No, we have not.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Some of them have.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Minister should have read it

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We only got it this morning. How could we read it before questions were asked today?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, may have seen it.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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We have had enough of this Machiavellian manipulation. The Government should release the report and face the music.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We have a duty to read it.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The report was presented to the Cabinet at the start of the meeting this morning at 10.30 a.m. There were 20 items on the agenda this morning. Other than the few people who got the report at the weekend, none of the rest of the Cabinet had read the report. The Cabinet has not yet read the report.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The committee took 20 minutes to read it.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I said today that the report will be available tomorrow. I answered questions on it today and people have already come to their conclusions on it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has not answered any questions.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have said there will be a debate and that can be worked out.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Stonewall Jackson had nothing on the Taoiseach.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The idea that a detailed report that took several months to prepare can just be brought in and circulated is not the way to do business.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It took 20 minutes at the committee.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The truth is that Opposition Deputies thought last week that I would delay this report. They did not get their way and are irritated that I did not hold back the report.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is delaying the debate now.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They will have it tomorrow. I hope they read it, although they probably will not bother, and then it can be debated.

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Gormley.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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On the Taoiseach's answer——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have called Deputy Gormley. I will call Deputy Rabbitte again on the Order of Business if he has something appropriate to say.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——can he tell the House why there has been this departure from Cabinet procedure?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is out of order. That does not arise at this stage.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why was the document not circulated with Cabinet documents in the normal way, not later than 12 p.m. on Friday? Why did that not happen?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have called Deputy Gormley. I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Normal procedure is to have it here by 12 p.m. on the Friday, but the report did not arrive until midnight on Friday night. That was the first time I even heard about it. I followed normal practice.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is a bluff.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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How was the report discussed at Cabinet this morning if it was received too late?

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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If Deputy Rabbitte does not resume his seat, the Chair will take action.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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How was the report discussed this morning if it was received too late?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If I had followed the procedure that Deputy Rabbitte has correctly raised, the report would not have been discussed at the Cabinet meeting until Tuesday week. That is when it would be on.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I bet the Minister, Deputy Martin, read it.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Did the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, see the report?

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Who leaked it to the Irish Examiner?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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If there are continued interruptions in the House, the Chair will adjourn it for five minutes and then move on to the next business.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Chair might as well do that. We are not getting answers. What is the point? The Chair wants a nice Order of Business, but for what purpose if we cannot debate an issue as major as €2 billion of taxpayer's money?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat. If he does not do so, he will leave the House.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Chair would love that.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is treating the House with contempt.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach has confirmed today that he approves of incineration. When will the Government approve the contract for Ringsend that has been submitted by Dublin City Council?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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In the context of promised legislation, when will the strategic national infrastructure Bill be published?

Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is on the back burner.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope by the summer session.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Woods could bring it back in. He might as well. There will be a few vacancies in the Cabinet tomorrow.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Has it been agreed?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have agreed the terms of the Bill, yes.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach raise the question of the undocumented Irish on St. Patrick's Day?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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When will it arise, the day after St. Patrick's Day? Is that the only day we can talk about the undocumented Irish?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will not continue until 7 p.m. with questions that are not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach discuss the undocumented Irish, yes or no?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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A question on the topic was answered today.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Rabbitte is right, this is a shambles where we cannot ask a straight question.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Since the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, arrived into the Department of Foreign Affairs, he has shown more interest in joining Sinn Féin.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will there be a Cabinet reshuffle after the Travers report is published tomorrow? When will the family law Bill come before the House?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The family law Bill will be introduced later in the year.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the Cabinet reshuffle, what about Deputy Woods?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach explain his objection to the simultaneous release to both Government and Opposition of the Travers report?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It arises. Will the Taoiseach explain why we cannot have the simultaneous release of the Travers report?