Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the costs which accrued to his Department during 2004 in respect of the Moriarty tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34100/04]

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the costs which accrued to his Department during 2004 in respect of tribunals of inquiry; the anticipated amount for 2005; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3498/05]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the cost to his Department of the Moriarty tribunal during 2004; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3626/05]

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the costs to his Department during 2004 in relation to the Moriarty tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4484/05]

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

The costs incurred by my Department during 2004 in respect of the Moriarty tribunal amounted to €3,607,418. The estimated costs for the tribunal for 2005 amounts to €4 million. However, provision of an additional €6.5 million has been made to cover costs such as report publication and some element of award of legal costs in the event that the tribunal completes its work in 2005. The overall estimate for 2005 is, therefore, €10,583,000.

The total costs incurred by my Department since 1997 is €18,640,000. This includes fees paid to counsel for the tribunal and administration costs incurred to date since the establishment of the tribunal. The total payment made to the legal team was €13,613,544 up to 31 December 2004.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Last July, a member of the Government indicated to the spokesman on justice from this side of the House that the Moriarty tribunal would end in six to nine months. Unlike any other, this tribunal is a creature of the Houses of the Oireachtas. It was commissioned by the House and, as such, we have a right to know where the tribunal is at in terms of its current workload and when it is expected to finish.

To think that it was established in 1997, has now cost €18 million, and that no interim report has been produced is simply beyond belief. The Flood and Mahon tribunal has published four interim reports, the most recent one informing the nation of the current state of the tribunal in terms of workload and projected timescale. In its terms of reference, the Moriarty tribunal has the discretion to produce interim reports. This appears to be running into the sand. Perhaps some facility could be arranged to require the Moriarty tribunal either to produce an interim report to tell us where we are after a cost of €18 million, or to set a definitive date to have it wound up, when a final report can be produced. The announcement by the previous Minister for Finance about the new schedule of fees has had a bearing in this in that there appears to have been a decision to walk if they did not get the fees that applied prior to his announcement. Does the Taoiseach accept that in the context of the Moriarty tribunal the legal personnel appear to have the upper hand? Could we have an announcement on either an interim report or a conclusion to the tribunal, because it is running for nine years at a cost of €18 million and no one appears to know what is happening?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will be aware, I have no control over these issues. When the Minister for Finance announced the new rates, the Attorney General was requested to contact all the tribunals to come to a conclusion time from which the new rates would be applicable. The period agreed in the case of the Moriarty tribunal was 11 January 2006. It is hoped to complete the tribunal by that date. It is also the date from which the new rates will apply and, I hope, it is the date on which the tribunal will have completed its work.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Given the various issues that have arisen in recent years, such as the Army deafness claims and so on, I have comforted myself in the knowledge that it is a redistribution of wealth and can be justified on these grounds. I have greater difficulty applying that approach to my learned friends. It certainly is an extraordinary situation. Are there legal challenges, or High Court or Supreme Court judgments or actions delaying all of this? Does the Taoiseach have a prospective date when it is expected this tribunal will finish?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am subject to correction, but I am not aware of any challenges affecting the tribunal. The Christmas period or early January was the date negotiated before the Bill was passed some months ago. It does not mean the new rates will apply from that date. If everything is not finished by that date, I do not envisage a situation where the Government will say that is it. This is the difficulty. All we can do is apply the new rates. That date was given on the basis that the work would be finished and the report presented. Presumably the hearings would have to be finished before the summer so that the report could be written. That is what I understand. It is several months since the date was negotiated and I have had no engagement with any of the teams. This is what was discussed with the Attorney General last summer.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On the specific line of questioning relating to the Taoiseach's Department and costs for the Moriarty tribunal, the information he has given us is shocking. Has he taken an overview position on the cost of the Moriarty tribunal and other tribunals in regard to all Departments? The piecemeal approach does not address the core issue of the excessive cost of legal fees for both senior and junior counsel representation at the Moriarty tribunal and all the other tribunals.

Is the Taoiseach aware of the presentation by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to the Committee of Public Accounts relating to the mobile telephone licence to Esat Digifone?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, we are dealing with the Moriarty tribunal. The Deputy is moving well away from the question if he is moving onto mobile telephone masts.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. In the particular instance, more than €1 million was expended for a brief representation to that Department in regard to that particular issue. While the €18 million is shocking, does the Taoiseach agree that it does not actually reflect the reality of the cost to the Exchequer and to taxpayers of the Moriarty tribunal and all the other tribunals?

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are dealing exclusively with the Moriarty tribunal.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has he a holistic view and understanding of all the costs across all Departments and what can he share with the House?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are third party costs in regard to the Moriarty tribunal. The overall assessment of these costs will not be available for some time. Up to the end of December, the total cost to the Exchequer of completed and sitting tribunals of inquiry and other public inquiries was €191.82 million.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Now you are talking.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Of this amount, €138.92 million was in respect of legal costs and €52.84 million related to other costs. The figure for legal costs includes €60.53 million in respect of third party legal costs awarded to date.

In regard to tribunals of inquiry and public inquiries which are sitting at present, the total cost to the end of December last is €154.12 million, of which €107.2 million is in respect of legal costs, and of which €35 million related to third party legal costs.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The costs accruing in respect of the Moriarty tribunal are astronomical. It is important that the House hears whether the Taoiseach believes, as he stated previously, that the completion date for this work will be January 2006. Does he still believe that completion date is achievable? He also mentioned previously that he would insist on the new fee structures for tribunal lawyers being applied. Is that still the case? Is it also still the case that no new staff are to be appointed to the Moriarty tribunal?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the discussions between the Attorney General and the chairpersons of the various tribunals, numbering six or seven, that was the date that was agreed at that time. I have no other date. The new fees will be applicable after that date if the work is completed. That is still our understanding. I have no particular control over that. If that is achieved, the new fees will apply. It will be totally a matter for the discretion of the chairman.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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What about the staff issue?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Additional staff were appointed, although I am not sure if that was in regard to the Moriarty tribunal. As the Deputy will recall, some of the tribunals indicated that they would not finish their work until 2014, 2015 or 2016. To carry out part of their work and having regard to the terms of reference that we changed, additional staff were to be made available at that time, and I understand that has happened.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Taoiseach accept that the cost to his Department and to the taxpayer in the matter of the tribunals has been massively increased because for eight years he and his Government have included in their herd of sacred cows, with land speculators and developers, the elite of the barrister profession as untouchables whose greed they would not curb by putting control over their fees? Some members of the legal profession added insult to injury by becoming speculators in the infamous land deal in Stillorgan——

Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question please, Deputy.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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——for which they paid €32 million and for which four years later they got €85 million in a speculative gain which I brought to the Taoiseach's attention. When a few barristers who are on their feet for a few hours charge €100,000, does the Taoiseach agree it is time to call a halt and that by not doing so much earlier he is putting a heavy punishment on taxpayers?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This House set up these tribunals and we gave them terms of reference. We took on people to serve on them. At the time it was not that easy to get some people to move from their positions to take up that work. The tribunals have gone on for a long time. I believe those on the tribunals would say that under their terms of reference these were matters they had to look into and investigate, and they are doing that. We have to deal with these matters in that way and see them through.