Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Question 67: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the treaty or directive of the European Union which prevents the Government from granting free travel to pensioners who live abroad when they visit Ireland for short periods; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5896/05]

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Question 103: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if he will promote the provision of free travel for Irish pensioners living abroad when they return home for short breaks. [1513/05]

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 67 and 103 together.

The free travel scheme is available to all people living in the State aged 66 years or over. It is also available to carers and to people with disabilities who are in receipt of certain social welfare payments.

The issue of extending the free travel scheme to non-resident pensioners was examined in the review of the free schemes which was published by the policy institute, Trinity College, Dublin, in 2000. The review considered that the main objective of the free travel scheme is to encourage older people and people with disabilities to remain independent and active within the community, thereby reducing the need for institutional care. It noted that extending the scheme to Irish pensioners living abroad who visit Ireland would have significant administrative and cost implications even if it was confined to those in receipt of Irish social welfare pensions. In 2000, it was estimated that the extension of the free travel scheme to EU pensioners could incur expenditure of the order of €10 million to €19 million, depending on the level of concession granted.

However, one of the issues for consideration is article 12 of the EC treaty which contains a general prohibition on discrimination on grounds of nationality. In other words, a member state cannot treat its own nationals more favourably than nationals from other member states. This may mean that it if the scheme were extended along the lines suggested, it would have to be extended to all pensioners who are EU nationals coming to Ireland for temporary stays. Extending the free travel scheme to all retired citizens of the European Union would not be in keeping with the objectives of the scheme.

It must also be borne in mind that any bilateral or multilateral arrangement would need to have the following elements at least: reciprocity — travel concessions for eligible visitors coming to Ireland would have to be reciprocated in the case of eligible people from Ireland going abroad; appropriate identification procedures — an internationally recognised travel pass would have to be introduced, issued by the country of main residence, for identification purposes; and cost sharing — arrangements for sharing the costs between countries would have to be worked out.

I am mindful that this matter has been raised in the House a number of times recently and I am continuing my examination of the issues involved.

Willie Penrose (Westmeath, Labour)
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In the context of the various points raised in the Minister's reply and the obstacles which emanate from the interpretation of article 12 of the EC treaty, I suggest he set up an expert group under the chairmanship of, perhaps, Professor Gerry Whyte, Trinity College, who is an expert on constitutional law and has also written extensive books on social welfare. In this way the Minister would get the best of both worlds. Professor Whyte is a very able individual. While I have not discussed the matter with him I know of him. In this way it may be possible to bring forward a solution to what appears to be a desire on the part of all Members to extend this concession to our emigrants who were the focus of recent programmes with a view to improving their lot in recognition of how they looked after us when the economy was not doing well in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. In this context it would be worth getting an expert of that calibre to examine possible ways of dealing with the legal impasse which appears to have been reached. Members of the task force on emigrants as well as departmental officials could be used to help in finding a solution.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's suggestion is helpful and I will certainly consider it. I will ask for input from the eminent professor on the basis that the Deputy has referred to him in the House. In the first instance and before I establish any group, I want my officials to establish what scope is allowed from the point of view of Brussels. This may be a matter of fact as much as of opinion. When that scope is established, I will see if the matter can be whittled down to see what legal issues remain.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Has this issue been discussed at the Council of Ministers and if so, what was the outcome? What other EU countries have free travel arrangements such as obtain in this country for older people and others, as outlined by the Minister in his reply? I note his reply about reciprocal arrangements with other countries. Has the cost of such arrangements been examined? Is the solution to be found in an arrangement whereby each country looks after its own citizens?

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I will consider the matter. I do not recall any discussions at the Council of Ministers about cross-border free travel arrangements.

Other member states do not offer free schemes to the extent they are offered in Ireland. This country is unique in its schemes for free fuel and free travel. Not many countries offer these schemes and few, if any, have cross-border arrangements. I will check those facts for the Deputy but this is my current information.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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With reference to the emphasis on increasing family ties, I do not understand how any other European Union country would object to such a scheme. Is the Minister's reference in his reply to a figure of between €10 million and €19 million an over-estimate? It seems to be a very high figure. Does the Minister agree that the Irish economy could earn kudos because the people in question would spend money in Ireland when they return? The scheme should be regarded as an encouragement of contact between family members.

Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge this is a worthy objective. The benefit would be seen in increased family ties leading perhaps to more family solidarity. The greater economic cohesion and benefits brought about by those visitors would greatly benefit the country.

The figure of €10 million to €19 million is the current best estimate available to the Department of the cost of extending the scheme to the broader group of Irish pensioners abroad. This is a casual estimate and more work would be required to produce a more detailed figure. I can see the benefits of some action in this area. The Government tried to do something for emigrants in other areas referred to by the Deputy, such as broadcasting and other areas, but the EU has a problem with action specifically directed at Irish people which is not extended to other EU citizens. This causes a fundamental problem and with which the Government must deal. It is not a case of other countries objecting but rather a matter of the provisions of EU law and treaties.