Domestic Refuse Charges: Motion...: 16 Feb 2005: Dáil debates (KildareStreet.com)

Dáil debates

Wednesday, 16 February 2005

Domestic Refuse Charges: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Gilmore on Tuesday, 15 February 2005:

That Dáil Éireann:

—calls on the Government to introduce a uniform national waiver scheme for domestic refuse charges in view of:

—the way in which the decision of the Government in 2003 to transfer responsibility for setting waste charges from democratically elected councillors to local authority managers has led to a very significant increase in the level of charges;

—the fact that these charges can result in financial difficulties for pensioners and others on low incomes, or those who have large families or exceptional household circumstances; and

—the great variation in waste charges and existing waiver schemes operated by local authorities and the total absence of any waiver scheme in some areas.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"(i) notes:

—that the operational details of waste management services have never been the responsibility of central Government;

—that local authorities have received record levels of discretionary general purpose grants from the local government fund in the current year;

—the very significant investment which has been made by the Government in developing modern integrated waste management infrastructure and services;

—that the costs of maintaining these services must be met;

—that many local authorities have availed of the existing statutory provisions which allow for the operation of waste waiver schemes; and

—that the introduction of use based charges is a more equitable way of meeting these costs and encouraging waste reduction and recycling;

(ii) supports the continuing discussions within the social partnership process which seek to identify and address any inequitable impact which the charging system may place on the disadvantaged."

— (Minister for the Environment, Heritage

8:00 pm

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I thank the Members who participated in this debate, including those with whom I do not agree. I particularly thank Deputy McHugh who, at an appropriate time, reminded the House of the intent of the motion. This motion is about pensioners, people on social welfare, workers who are on low income and people who cannot afford the waste charges bills they are getting from either their local authority or the private bin collectors. The motion simply asks the Government to introduce a national waiver scheme on their behalf.

When I proposed this motion last night, I did so without political rancour and with the minimum of political comment in the hope of persuading the Government to introduce a national waiver scheme. I did not seek to blame the Government or to engage in political confrontation. The pensioners, the people on low income, low income workers and the people who are worried about the bill they have received from their local authority or private bin collector deserve better than the type of smart ass speech the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government gave last night.

The Minister, Deputy Roche, might consider it clever to send a political assistant or perhaps a media consultant, at taxpayers' expense, into the archives to discover a speech made 22 years ago by the former Deputy, Mr. Dick Spring, in the hope that it will somehow cause embarrassment to the Labour Party. I can respond with two facts. The Labour Party is proud of Dick Spring's record in public life and there are few who can hold a candle to it. Second, if we wanted to get into the embarrassment game, we would not have to go back 22 years to find something to embarrass Fianna Fáil.

The most serious aspect of the Minister's speech last night is the degree to which it was dishonest and inaccurate. He told the House, for example, that Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, on the basis of a motion supported by former Labour Party Minister, Niamh Bhreathnach, opted to support the estimates. He effectively said that the Labour Party's support for the estimates introduced the charging regime in that local authority. The estimates meeting in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council took place on 11 January. The county manager signed the order introducing the waste charges in that local authority on 17 December 2004. This clearly shows that the decision to introduce waste charges and make waiver schemes is made by county managers on the basis of legislation introduced by the previous Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen. Deputy Roche, Deputy Andrews, Deputy Fiona O'Malley and other Deputies who spoke in those sleeveen terms about this issue all voted for it.

Deputy Fiona O'Malley spoke about the need for consistency. She concluded her speech by saying she opposes a national waiver scheme for waste charges. That does not surprise me. Deputy O'Malley and her party do not have a particularly good record of supporting measures, tax breaks or reliefs that affect poor people, as distinct from people at the other end of the social scale whom they support. However, if she wishes to discuss consistency, she could at least have made a contribution that was consistent with her party's policy. The Progressive Democrats election manifesto for the local elections in 2004 states: "We support exemption from waste charges for lower income households, including where bin services are privatised." The next time Deputy O'Malley wishes to lecture me about consistency, she might check her facts first.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Even the Minister is smiling.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was interesting that Government Deputies, such as Deputy Nolan, Deputy Carey, Deputy O'Connor, Deputy Callanan and Deputy Devins, could effectively agree with the motion in their contributions. They were arguing the case and discussing the difficulties for pensioners. Their arguments were similar to those of Deputy Morgan, Deputy McHugh and Deputy Boyle. They were, at least, prepared to use the time available to them to make a case on behalf of pensioners and people on low incomes. It is interesting that they could do that and that Deputy Gregory and Deputy Joe Higgins, in the course of their entire contributions, had nothing to say about pensioners or the people who are affected by this.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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There would be no charges except that the former leader of the Deputy's party, Deputy Spring, brought them in with Fine Gael. Let us have some honesty. Who brought them in? Dick Spring brought them in.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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That is rubbish.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Who gave them the weapons to use? Dick Spring gave them the weapons.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Rubbish.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Deputy Gilmore was in the Workers Party when it denounced Dick Spring, and he comes in here tonight and lauds Mr. Spring, whereas he hated him as a member of the Workers Party.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Deputy is a liar.

Seán Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Deputy Joe Higgins has been found out.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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He is a liar.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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In the 1980s he voted against everything.

(Interruptions).

Seán Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Deputy Joe Higgins should vote against the motion.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Vote for bringing in waste charges. Come on.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Order, Deputy Gilmore, without interruption.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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When the Labour Party comes here to make a case on behalf of the poorest people in this society it is bad enough that we have to deal with the Government without being stabbed in the back by Deputy Joe Higgins.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Who stabbed whom in the back? Deputy Gilmore cannot lecture anyone on stabbing people in the back.

Seán Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Deputy Joe Higgins should vote against the motion tonight.

Amendment put.

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 65 (Michael Ahern, Barry Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Martin Brady, Séamus Brennan, John Browne, Joe Callanan, Pat Carey, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Mary Coughlan, John Cregan, John Curran, Noel Davern, Síle de Valera, Tony Dempsey, John Dennehy, Jimmy Devins, John Ellis, Frank Fahey, Dermot Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Jim Glennon, Noel Grealish, Mary Hanafin, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Joe Jacob, Cecilia Keaveney, Billy Kelleher, Peter Kelly, Séamus Kirk, Tom Kitt, Conor Lenihan, Michael McDowell, Tom McEllistrim, John McGuinness, Micheál Martin, John Moloney, Donal Moynihan, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Charlie O'Connor, Liz O'Donnell, John O'Donoghue, Denis O'Donovan, Noel O'Flynn, Batt O'Keeffe, Ned O'Keeffe, Fiona O'Malley, Tim O'Malley, Tom Parlon, Seán Power, Dick Roche, Mae Sexton, Brendan Smith, Michael Smith, Noel Treacy, Dan Wallace, Joe Walsh, Ollie Wilkinson)

Against the motion: 58 (Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, James Breen, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Paudge Connolly, Joe Costello, Simon Coveney, Jerry Cowley, Seán Crowe, Ciarán Cuffe, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Bernard Durkan, Olwyn Enright, Martin Ferris, Eamon Gilmore, John Gormley, Marian Harkin, Joe Higgins, Phil Hogan, Brendan Howlin, Paul Kehoe, Kathleen Lynch, Dinny McGinley, Finian McGrath, Paul McGrath, Paddy McHugh, Liz McManus, Gay Mitchell, Arthur Morgan, Breeda Moynihan-Cronin, Gerard Murphy, Denis Naughten, Dan Neville, Michael Noonan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Fergus O'Dowd, Jim O'Keeffe, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Séamus Pattison, Willie Penrose, John Perry, Pat Rabbitte, Michael Ring, Eamon Ryan, Seán Ryan, Trevor Sargent, Joe Sherlock, Róisín Shortall, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Liam Twomey, Mary Upton, Jack Wall)

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Kehoe.

Amendment declared carried.

Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.

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Domestic Refuse Charges: Motion (Resumed).