Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 57: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the basis on which a decision was made to locate the proposed new prison at Thornton, County Dublin; if his attention has been drawn to the serious concerns expressed by local residents at the proposal; the consultation there has been or the consultation he plans to have with local residents; the amount paid for the site of the proposed new prison at Thornton, County Dublin; if a contract has been signed for the purchase of the site; the total estimated cost of the project, including all building and development costs; the discussions he has had with the health authorities regarding the decision to relocate the Central Mental Hospital to the same campus; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4920/05]

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy has raised a number of issues in his question and in the time available I will try to respond briefly to them all.

At the start of 2004, I announced my intention to replace the facilities in the Mountjoy Prison complex with a new prison facility on a greenfield site in the greater Dublin area. I am determined to improve facilities for prisoners and to do away with the practice of slopping out in Mountjoy, and the only feasible way to do that was to construct new facilities on a much more spacious site. When the new facilities are completed, the Mountjoy site, which is in a densely populated urban area, will become available for redevelopment.

After my announcement, advertisements were put in the print media inviting interested persons to come forward with potentially suitable sites. A committee comprising representatives from the Office of Public Works, the Irish Prison Service and my Department was subsequently established to review all potential sites and make recommendations. The committee had the benefit of advice from a property expert from CB Richard Ellis Gunne who supported the committee in an advisory capacity. Professional planning and engineering advice was also obtained as appropriate. Details of the process followed by the committee are contained in the reports of the committee, which are available on my Department's website.

The committee recommended the purchase of a particular site. This recommendation was accepted and, on 26 January 2005, a contract was signed for the purchase of a 150 acre site at Thornton Hall, The Ward, County Dublin for a cost of €29.9 million, which is just less than €200,000 per acre. An initial payment of €2.9 million, which is 10% of the price, has been paid by way of deposit.

The intention is to build state-of-the-art facilities for adult male and female prisoners on the new site. Detailed planning could not commence until a site was acquired and this work is now under way. The cost of developing the new site will be substantial but it will not be possible to give any reliable estimate of total cost until the design phase has been completed and tenders obtained. I do not intend to give an indicative price here because that will just drive up the price against me. I can advise the Deputy, however, that it is far less than the estimated €400 million it would have cost to build an entirely new prison complex on the existing Mountjoy site.

There was no advance consultation with local communities in any of the areas in which potential sites were located prior to a final decision being made. I am aware that some of the local residents close to the Thornton Hall site have certain concerns about the proposed development of the site. Immediately following the announcement of the development, the Irish Prison Service wrote to residents in the immediate vicinity of the site chosen and assured them that the highest priority will be given to allaying, in so far as possible, their genuine concerns. This letter was followed up by the Irish Prison Service offering to meet concerned groups. Two such meetings were arranged but were postponed at the request of local representatives. Plans for the development of the site will be made available to local interests in due course.

I have had no discussion with the health authorities about the relocation of the Central Mental Hospital. That is a matter for the Minister for Health and Children in the first instance. The Government has decided in principle, subject to further study, that the Central Mental Hospital should be transferred from Dundrum to the same site as the new prison facility but that it should be kept separate and distinct from any prison facility.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

For a distinguished lawyer, the Minister can display a certain lack of logic from time to time. If the real reason for closing down Mountjoy Prison and acquiring the new greenfield site was to do with in-cell sanitation, which is lacking in the slopping out process, why did the Minister indicate to me in a reply to a question last year that approximately 400 cases were being taken to the European Court of Human Rights regarding Portlaoise, Cork and Limerick prisons, with perhaps a few cases regarding Mountjoy? If that was the Minister's real concern, he should have started in Cork, Portlaoise and Limerick.

Is it the case that there is a total lack of penal policy in this area? In the past eight years, prison accommodation has increased from 2,000 to 3,200 but at the same time the Minister has closed down three prisons. Which direction is the Minister going in? Is he opening up more spaces to accommodate more prisoners or closing down perfectly good available space for the most dubious reasons? The National Economic and Social Forum report has been disregarded.

What is the real reason for this purchase and this particular prison? How is it the case that the committee the Minister just mentioned had a presentation on the Thornton Hall site on 26 January and on that same day it made the decision to purchase it? There was no lead-in time. Nobody from the committee examined the site, other than the auctioneer, yet the committee bought it hook, line and sinker for ten times the normal market value. Will the Minister explain the reason the committee was allowed jettison the required conditions for purchase in respect of cost? Cost and public transport were no obstacles, even though they were written in as necessary conditions for a greenfield site. How did that happen? How was that a valid decision in those circumstances if the main conditions outlined to the committee had been jettisoned in regard to this particular site?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will deal with the questions in the order the Deputy raised them. First, regarding the number of prison spaces, it was necessary in the lifetime of my predecessor as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for a major expansion of the prison service. That was due to the fact that, prior to his coming into office in 1997, there was a revolving door syndrome which was causing the prison and criminal justice systems to fall into major disrepute. That has ceased. Second, we have an expanding population, with more than 4 million people. Even though I regard prison as a remedy of last resort, I have nonetheless carefully monitored the use of prison space and I am convinced of the need to build this additional accommodation.

The Deputy also inquired as to why I did not start with Limerick, Cork and Portlaoise, and asked if I am concerned about slopping out. I toured Cork Prison and I decided that it should be demolished and a new prison for the region developed at Spike Island in Cork harbour. We are working on that at present.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That prison is closed.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy asked about three prisons being closed. He is referring to Shanganagh Castle, in which a small group of youth offenders were detained and which was not a success as an institution——

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is because it was deliberately run down.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

—— and Spike Island and the Curragh, both of which were mothballed due to the impasse over prison officers' overtime. The Prison Officers Association will conduct a ballot on the overtime issue in the near future and it is my intention to reactivate those prisons as soon as the issue is resolved.

The Deputy then inquired about the procedures of the committee that was put in place. The committee operated independently and not under my direction. I am satisfied it gave careful consideration to all the options.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It had riding instructions from the Department.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I did not change the committee's criteria.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The committee changed them itself.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy suggested that the price is hugely inflated when compared to what was available on the market. A series of advertisements were placed in the national media and the committee considered all the offers that came forward. Many of these involved substantially higher sums of money per acre than that being asked in respect of the site in question. Bearing in mind that the site is located in the greater Dublin area and has a substantial expectation value in terms of development, when the prison is completed the price of the land will form only a small and reasonable portion of the expense attaching to the entire operation.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would hate to send the Minister out to negotiate the purchase of a farm.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is it correct that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform changed the criteria in respect of costs and informed the committee that costs would not be a problem and that the committee changed the other criteria? Do I understand that no decision has been made in respect of transferring the Central Mental Hospital to the new site or is the Minister merely indicating that it is not his responsibility? Will he give a commitment to meet the residents?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I made several efforts to meet the residents of the area. The arranged meetings have been postponed at the request of the residents.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will organise a meeting with them.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I note the Deputy's consistent policy that Mountjoy Prison should remain where it is located at present. I am not willing to waste €400 million on a development to provide an inadequate prison.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I did not inquire about that matter. The Minister should answer my question.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The question of redeveloping Mountjoy — the Deputy's preferred option——

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No, that is not correct. The Minister should just answer my question

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——was considered by a group established by my predecessor and chaired by Governor Lonergan.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Did the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform inform the committee that cost was no option?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The group reported in February 2001 and proposed a development which was——

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister should answer the question.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——priced at that time by a firm of quantity surveyors as being in the region of €336 million.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is not answering the question, he has gone off on a rant.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not ranting.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is ranting.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am merely outlining the facts but the Deputy does not appear to want to hear them.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will discuss Mountjoy on another occasion.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will invite the Minister to come before the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights and ask the residents to attend as well. He can confront them at that stage.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would be happy to appear——

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will issue your invitation today.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister should just answer the questions he is asked. We do not have a great deal of time.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I remind the Deputies opposite that when their parties were in office, nothing was done about these matters.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is kicking to touch. He will not answer the question.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What I am doing is developing a modern prison system for this country. Deputy Costello and people close to him want to keep Mountjoy in the city centre at a cost of €400 million——

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Did the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform row back on the conditions it originally imposed and state that cost was no object?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——to the Irish taxpayer. My response to that is "No way, José". I will not go down that road.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister is not answering the questions. That is typical of him. He is merely ranting.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not ranting. It is interesting that the Deputies opposite like to impart facts but they do not like to receive them.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

At least we impart facts, not fiction.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 58: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the projected costs of the planned new super-prison to replace Mountjoy under PPP; the comparative cost of the project under public financing; and the results of the comparative cost analyses conducted by his Department. [5295/05]

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The intention is to build state-of-the-art facilities for adult male and female prisoners as well as other facilities on the new site at Thorntown, County Dublin. However, until a site was acquired, final decisions could not be made on the full range of facilities to be located there. Detailed planning is now under way. It will not be possible to give any reliable estimate of total cost until the design phase has been completed and tenders obtained. I can, however, advise the Deputy that it will be far less than the estimated €400 million it would cost to build a new prison complex on the existing Mountjoy site.

The issue of redeveloping Mountjoy was considered by a group established by my predecessor and chaired by Governor Lonergan. Its report, published in February 2001, contained a number of specific proposals and recommendations for the future development and use of the Mountjoy complex. The proposed development would have provided a maximum of 723 places in addition to the female prison. An estimate prepared by a firm of surveyors on behalf of the OPW in June 2001 of the capital cost of construction of the proposed development came to the then total of €336 million. I have been advised that it is estimated that it would now cost over €400 million — a significant multiple of the cost of the development of a prison on a greenfield site — and take seven years to complete the redevelopment of Mountjoy as envisaged by that group. This level of expenditure on redeveloping Mountjoy cannot be justified.

All the advice I have received to date is that this project, as regards its construction, is suitable for consideration for a PPP venture. Before any PPP arrangements are entered into, however, a formal PPP assessment for the project is required. The latter will address in detail the rationale for procuring the project via PPP, the potential benefits and the optimal PPP structure.

I emphasise that there is no question of privatising the management or staffing of the Prison Service. As indicated previously in the House, I regard that as an option of last resort. In the context of the Prison Officers Association recommending to its members acceptance of the outcome of the negotiations between my Department and their union, that option should no longer feature in respect of future planning.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If the other prisons had remained open, there would have been no need for a new one.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Last year, I asked the Minister about his plans for PPPs and privatisation and he informed me that detailed research had not been conducted into the privatisation of prisons or the criminal justice agencies. Is that still the case? Does the Minister accept that he does not know how much less a prison built under a public private partnership will cost than one constructed on a public basis?

The choice of Thorntown stinks to high heaven. Does the Minister not agree that it was not acceptable for Ronan Webster to attend a meeting, having missed the previous meeting, and present a site for consideration which was not included on the original list of 34 or on the short-lists? At the end of the meeting in question, a deal worth €29 million was signed. Does that not stink to high heaven? Was there a breach of the tendering process in this instance, given that the Minister advertised for expressions early in the year and that this site was not included? Will those people who took the time to submit applications have a case to state that their sites were not given proper consideration because the site to which I refer was given preferred status which permitted it to jump ahead of everything else in the queue?

Why did the planning and community impact criterion come sixth out of the eight determining criteria? Is it because community consultation is less important than access or the proximity of a site to public transport?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On behalf of the people who participated in the selection procedure, all of whom are people of the highest integrity and public servants in this State and none of whom took direction from me, I reject the Deputy's suggestion that their activities stink to high heaven. I regard that as an unworthy charge against them and I refute it completely.

As I understand it, from the minutes that have been published, the group had selected a different site. The vendor of the different site decided he was not prepared to go on with the matter, for reasons best known to himself. To imply, as the Deputy did, that this purchase was one which was in the mind of the selection committee at all times and therefore that other tenderers were wasting their time is untrue. It is my understanding that a great variety of sites were on offer. One of the criteria foremost in the minds of the committee's members was the question of impacting on local communities. For that reason sites which were offered adjacent to built-up areas were rejected because they did not want to locate the prison in such communities.

If the Deputy looks in a fair-minded way at the records of the selection committee, which acted entirely independent of me and without direction from me and the way it went about its work, he will find it acted in a conscientious way. I therefore ask the Deputy to withdraw the implication of misbehaviour or corruption in saying that the committee's deliberations stink to high heaven.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have a supplementary question. If one looks at the minutes published as a result of a parliamentary question from myself, negotiations have not closed. If the Minister took the time to read it, he will find it on paragraph three of the minutes of 18 January 2005. It says——

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not in order to quote.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not going to quote. The person in question was still interested in the sale. The following paragraph is only approximately ten lines and details where this committee got a new site, as discussed on that date, produced out of nowhere by Mr. Webster, and after which a deal was quickly signed. That stinks to high heaven. There was a process in which this site was not involved from the start. If it was, it should have been introduced, re-introduced or advertised. I will not with withdraw my remark that this process stinks to high heaven. I believe an investigation should be held into how the committee reached that determination.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is open to the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights to summon any of the persons concerned before them to answer how they carried out their functions.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It could just do that.

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The phrase "stinks to high heaven" suggests that somehow there was something egregiously wrong and corrupt, amounting to maladministration, in the way these people carried out their functions. If the Deputy looks at the record, he will see they had fixed on another site and that the vendor in that case opted out of the purchase at a late stage in the proceedings.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What must be the impact according to the minutes as published?

Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy will find the vendor opted out.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is in the minutes.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will go into the details at the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is still no way to do business.