Dáil debates
Thursday, 17 June 2004
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 11, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the amendments to the agreement establishing the International Telecommunications Satellite Organisation;No. 4, National Monuments (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 3, Road Traffic Bill 2004 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 11 shall be decided without debate.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 11 agreed? Agreed.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Tánaiste when she says the Government has been damaged by vacillation, hesitation and inertia in tackling serious problems. Does she agree that part of the problem relates to its legislative programme? Of the 19 Bills we have been promised for this session, to be published in the next two to three weeks, only five have yet surfaced. Will she indicate what is happening to some of these critical Bills such as the prisons Bill, the disability Bill, the criminal justice Bill and the State airports Bill, in which she has a particular interest? There seems to be a huge delay in producing these.
I also raise the role of the Oireachtas in scrutinising the decentralisation programme. The Government may think it is being decisive in pushing ahead with decentralisation, but surely the Tánaiste would agree that it should be open to proper scrutiny by the Oireachtas. How does she square the blocking by the Fianna Fáil majority on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service of any investigation or assessment of decentralisation with the democratic accountability to which her party has always been pledged?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The bulk of the remaining Bills, if not all of them, will be published before the close of this session. I do not want to commit myself to every one of them, but the majority will be published. A number of them have already been approved by the Cabinet, including the health, safety and welfare at work Bill. A number of them are at an advanced stage.
On the decentralisation programme, the Government has put a process in place, chaired by Phil Flynn, to look at all the issues surrounding decentralisation. It is open to Members of this House, through the normal channels, to raise issues in regard to decentralisation, but the policy decision has been made. What remains to be put in place is the arrangements for the transfer of individuals who wish to move from Dublin to their preferred location.
Gay Mitchell (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Ministers will be transferred before that happens.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I do not think so.
Gay Mitchell (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I see some of them here.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I hope the Deputy is still supporting it.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The central question is why the Government is blocking Members of the Oireachtas from doing the job they are appointed to do on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service committee of having hearings on the decentralisation programme. Why is the Government insisting that such hearings do not happen?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Hearings?
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Hearings have been sought by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. It has sought to invite Phil Flynn from the implementation committee, the trade unions and experts in the field so that the Oireachtas can scrutinise the proposals. Why is the Tánaiste's party, supported by Fianna Fáil, blocking those hearings?
David Stanton
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is a straight question.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I detect an attitude among the Opposition that it wants to change this programme. In fact, I know the Labour Party put up posters in Dublin stating "No to decentralisation".
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The policy decision has been made and it will not be reversed.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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We want to have hearings.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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We are not obliged to have hearings.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is this House for, if it cannot discuss it?
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I call Deputy Rabbitte.
Noel Treacy (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte is anti-regions.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am not anti-regions at all. The regions were not too kind to Deputy Treacy when he gave it a whirl five years ago.
The Tánaiste said lethargy and inability to make hard decisions is the reason for paralysis in Government. Does she not accept that part of the reason for such disenchantment with the Government is the manner in which it treats and diminishes this House at every turn? If she is trying to push reforms through this lethargic Cabinet, for whatever is its remaining life, will she promote an agenda of reform of this House? The instance raised by Deputy Richard Bruton in regard to the capacity of the House to monitor and examine the merits of the decentralisation programme is a good example. Her colleagues campaigned in this city on the basis that decentralisation, as announced by the Minister for Finance and not decentralisation per se, was a Fianna Fáil idea. I am sure Deputy Fiona O'Malley kept her commitment to the public that she would talk to the Tánaiste about it. Is it not important that the House has the opportunity to scrutinise the proposals, such as they are, given the figures revealed for the Tánaiste's Department and for FÁS-based staff?
On promised legislation, given how unsettled matters are, when will the constituencies revision Bill be brought before the House in case we are all caught by surprise and we need to have it behind us?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Government's decentralisation programme is a Government one. There is no question but that the Progressive Democrats Party is totally supportive of that programme and remains totally committed to it.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I do not know when we will have the constituencies revision Bill. It has not been brought before the Cabinet and I do not anticipate any great need to rush it through. We have three years to get it through.
The Government has a fairly radical set of proposals on Dáil reform but the Labour Party will not engage because of the Thursday issue which it originally supported.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Labour Party has done everything it can to push through reforms. It has published an 80 page document on it. It is the Government that will not engage.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On the earlier question on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, we know that Government backbenchers have been talking about mending their ways since the elections last Friday but what is the Tánaiste's view on the fact that Fianna Fáil members of that committee have censored the opportunity of an Oireachtas committee to address the issue of decentralisation? It is an issue of primary concern to the committee. No matter impacts more on the public service than the proposal to decentralise 10,300 jobs.
On the issue of health Bills and Fianna Fáil backbenchers' commitment to mend their ways, there were at least five health Bills in the programme for the last term scheduled for 2004 but in the current term, they are signalled for 2005 or no date has been given. Will we see expedition of the address of Bills long promised, that is, the medical practitioners Bill, the nurses and midwives Bill, the pharmacy Bill, the VHI Bill and the adoption Bill? All those Bills have now been deferred. Will we see an improvement in terms of the address of this important legislation? Will they be brought forward in 2004?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am not in a position to say when a number of those Bills will be brought forward. The Deputy mentioned the medical practitioners Bill and the nurses and midwives Bill. The pharmacy Bill, the adoption Bill and the VHI Bill will be brought forward next year.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am sure the Tánaiste is anxious that the partnership talks succeed. In that regard, I ask her to be mindful of the high level of interest in the future of Aer Rianta. The State airports Bill, which is due for publication before the summer recess, might be put on hold while we await the outcome of the talks rather than inflame any views expressed that might not be helpful to the partnership talks. Will she take that on board from a responsible point of view in that it will not be helpful to proceed with the state airports Bill while discussions are ongoing? It may need to be changed in light of those discussions.
Will the mercantile marine (amendment) Bill be given a date even though it has been said it is not possible to indicate one? There is an ongoing problem of flags of convenience at sea and the cutting of corners in terms of safety ironically arising from competition which is promoted by the Tánaiste. Considerable risks are being taken and unless priority is given to this Bill, they may set back policies on the marine environment for many years. Will the Tánaiste indicate a date for the publication of the mercantile marine (amendment) Bill?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is not possible to say when we will have the mercantile marine Bill. It is the Government's intention to publish and pass the airports Bill before the summer recess.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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It is a case of to hell with the consequences.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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To publish and pass it?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I would like to ask about No. 4 on today's Order Paper, the National Monuments (Amendment) Bill. When we were notified about the legislation last week, we were informed that this was a simple Bill to allow for the completion of the M50 motorway at Carrickmines. However, when it was published on the day of the election we discovered it is about much more than that. It will allow the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, at his discretion, to demolish, sell or export any national monument. It is a Bill of much greater significance than was initially announced. I object to its being taken today so soon after its publication in view of its significance. Will the Tánaiste indicate the Government's intention regarding the enactment of this legislation?
If it was still the proposed simple Bill only to deal with Carrickmines, I would be disposed to co-operating with the Government on it. However, in view of the wider significance of the Bill, what is the Government's intention regarding its enactment? Is it its intention to have it enacted prior to the summer recess or will sufficient time be given for its consideration in view of its much wider significance?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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In regard to the National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, there are a number of safeguards included.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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For example, the National Museum has to be consulted and——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It will be given only 14 days to reply.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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There are no safeguards.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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——the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism has to give a licence before any of those measures can be taken by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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No, that is not the case.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That is the case. The intention is to pass the legislation before the summer recess.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is that not a good example of the kind of proposals that have been put forward so many times this year? A major Bill such as this is brought forward but turns out to be not what was promised. The Tánaiste is not only requiring people to make Second Stage speeches on this Bill today but to push it through the House. That is simply not acceptable and it is part of the contempt to which I referred to with which this House is being treated. I do not know what national monument the Government is planning to export. Does it mean the Taoiseach is going to Brussels after all?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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As the Deputy is aware, this measure is necessary because of the court decision in regard to Carrickmines. Millions of taxpayers' euro are being wasted because we cannot proceed with this.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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We will deal with Carrickmines.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Such money could be spent on health, education or on some other area. This measure is urgently needed and the Deputy knows that.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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We will agree with the provision regarding Carrickmines but that is not what the Bill states.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is essentially that.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In view of the conflicting emotions that are obviously rampant on the Government benches at present, the blame game, the recriminations that have taken place and are likely to take place, the concerns of those about to be demoted and the hopes and aspirations of those who might be promoted, will the Tánaiste indicate when the whistleblowers' Bill might be introduced?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That Bill is awaiting Committee Stage.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That was a good question.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is not the only thing that is waiting.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I would like to congratulate Fine Gael on its success in the elections.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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At least the Tánaiste got that better than the leader of Fianna Fáil when he referred to Sinn Féin.
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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I congratulate the Tánaiste on managing to gloss over the fact that her party lost 25% of its city and council councillors in the local elections last week. In regard to local government, the local government rates Bill was first promised in October 2003, it was to be approved by the end of 2003 and is now promised for 2005. Given that we now have a new set of councils throughout the country, it might be in order to pass this Bill to ensure the new councils, from the passing of their first set of estimates, will operate under a new and proper set of guidelines.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will not take any lectures from a party that lost 100% of its MEPs. The Bill will be ready in 2005.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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At least they contested the elections.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Deputy's party intends to align itself with the communists.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste's party has given up. It made the right decision and the Tánaiste knows that.