David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Question 122: To ask the Minister for Education and Science his plans to improve the pupil-career guidance counsellor ratio in second level schools; the current ratio; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9719/04]

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased to inform the Deputy that as part of my recent announcement of an extension of the guidance enhancement initiative for a further two years, I am creating an additional 30 guidance posts under this initiative from the commencement of the coming school year. These 30 posts will be additional to the 630 whole-time equivalent career guidance posts already in place in the second level system.

Under current arrangements, my Department makes a specific ex-quota allocation of teaching posts in respect of guidance to schools in the second level system. In the case of schools in the free education scheme, the level of allocation ranges from eight hours per week in the case of schools with enrolments below 200 pupils to 44 hours per week — the equivalent of two whole-time posts — in the case of schools with an enrolment of 1,000 pupils or more. In the case of schools outside the free education or block grant schemes, 11 hours per week are allocated in respect of the schools in the 350-499 enrolment category and a full post is allocated in the case of schools with 500 or more pupils.

In addition to allocation based on enrolments, 50 whole-time equivalent guidance counselling posts were allocated in the 2001-02 school year under the guidance enhancement initiative. The focus of this initiative was to enhance the provision of guidance to young people at risk, to improve links between schools and the world of work and to improve the take-up of science subjects. A total of 103 second level schools benefited directly under the initiative.

My decision to extend the guidance enhancement initiative for a further two years and to allocate a further 30 posts to the initiative reflects the importance I attach to the area of guidance and my commitment to ensuring the continued development of our guidance services in schools.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his response. Does the Minister agree we are still playing catch up in this area? We need to move to a better ratio across the system than that of 1:500. Does the Minister have long-term plans to permanently improve the overall ratio? What is his final target? Is it 1:200 or 1:250, or does he have a target?

The Minister seems to focus on guidance. Will he outline his views on the importance of counselling in schools? Young people are facing many difficulties and pressures. I am a guidance counsellor and I have an interest in this area. I believe the Minister is also a guidance counsellor. What is the Minister's vision for counselling in schools? What timescale does the Minister have for improving the ratio of guidance counsellor to student? Can the ratio be decreased to 1:250 or better in the next two years?

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Deputy's time has elapsed.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What will the Minister do to improve the quality of counselling in schools, including examining the qualifications and expertise of counsellors working with young people at risk?

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stanton, the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, and I are former guidance counsellors.

Denis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should know how appalling it is.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I was one of the career guidance counsellors cut from the school system in 1985 when the then Minister decided that schools with 250 pupils should not have a full-time guidance counsellor. My guidance and counselling hours were reduced from full time to only three hours. I do not want to revert to this. As resources and personnel permit, I would like to return to the circumstances that existed in 1985. I strongly believe that in times of financial and personnel constraint, there is a need to strengthen ancillary services, although this is an integral part of education.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister agree that the high drop-out and failure rate at third level could, in some instances, be caused by the lack of guidance counsellors at second level? Guidance counsellors often do not have enough time to give proper guidance to students at second level when, despite their young age, they must make important decisions. Does the Minister agree that the ratio must be returned to 1:250 now and not at a time in the distant future? Young people are under tremendous pressure for points in the leaving certificate and have to deal with personal issues both in school and outside it. What is the Minister's timescale for achieving the 1:250 ratio? Will it be this year, next year or ten years' time? Surely the Minister has a target in mind for this important area.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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While I accept that the Deputy is not suggesting this, I would not like to blame the second level guidance and counselling service for the rate of drop-out from third level.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I did not blame them.

Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
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I have acknowledged that the Deputy did not do this. While there is a view that some blame is attached to second level, third level institutions could do much more in this regard.

The national education psychological service must be strengthened. I want to bring this to its full complement. I want to introduce and honour a commitment on the chaplaincy service. While I want to improve guidance and counselling, I cannot make predictions on how fast I will be able to provide an extended service. The Department is providing 30 additional posts this year.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Minister's time has concluded.