Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I wish the Minister well in throwing his hat into the ring. As regards the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, while I had many a chat with him in the Chamber over the past number of years since 2016, I could talk to him very well. We get on sound. I might not agree with his policies, but I will draw a separate political line between the man and the ball, as we say in the country. I also wish him well.

I listened to the Minister on the radio yesterday, when rural Ireland was referred to. He said that the Green Party had to listen to people and get in contact with rural Ireland. I will tell him a little story. My kids and I lived out in what would be called the sticks in the countryside. There were no big crèche facilities at the time. There are today, thankfully. I have a grandchild. When children's names are being put down, they have to wait a year or 18 months in most places now. While there are great facilities throughout the country, they are not always available straight away or people could be 18 months waiting. To go back to my children, a neighbour or someone up or down the road facilitated a husband or wife to be able to go to work because if that neighbour was not there or did not do that, the parents would be left in a situation where one of them would have to stay at home. The Minister talked about listening. I remember my kids going over to a neighbour every day. They would go out in a puddle of water and then come in. They were minded so well, to be frank, we would not have minded them as well. They integrated into a family - the people minding them had children as well - and they were all one and were minded. Each one of them minded each other. There was no special training. There was no nothing. What was there was a fatherly instinct and a motherly instinct from the father and mother who looked after them in that house.

They minded those children as well or better than if they were their own.

I will address what we are doing now, which is why I asked the Minister to listen. Under the legislation that came before this Bill, there was an exemption. Off the top of my head, I think you could mind up to four children or three youngsters and three bigger ones without having to register. I have talked to people around the country. I know family members can mind children but Ireland has changed a bit. At one time, there would have been a granny in the house who would mind the kids or some member of the family would have been at home. Ireland, and especially rural Ireland, has changed an awful lot, however. Everyone has gone working. That is a good thing. Both men and women have the opportunity to go to work. The problem now is that, while we may know someone down the road or up the road, they are not going to be interested in doing it any more. I have talked to a great many people. This morning, I talked to a woman in Roscommon who has been at it all her life. Does the Minister know what she said to me? The Minister has talked about a three-year transition but these people are going to walk away. What are we going to have then?

In Ireland, we go from hero to zero. It is full pell-mell or nothing. We can never do middle of the road stuff or go for the happy medium. The Minister should always remember that, when parents bring their kids to somebody near them or up or down the road who minds children, they make sure that person is looking after their kids well. They are confident and they make sure. You do not give your kids to somebody unless you are sure they are going to be sound.

Big crèches are a different ballgame because there are a lot of staff and all of that. Where you have a small number of children, whether very young babies or playschool-aged children, it is a totally different ballgame. I will tell the Minister what we will end up doing. He can talk to the people involved. There is an issue in most areas of society and most scenarios. I will give an example. In water, there was a time when the likes of me could tender for a job but now, with Irish Water, you have to have a turnover of €1 million or €10 million. All of the different procurement systems are about the big guys. I do not know whether it is the EU that is driving this or something else. With this Bill, we are going to take out the person who had been doing the job locally.

By the way, they have no problem whatsoever with Garda vetting. If you read the legislation, if someone comes into the house for a mug of tea, as they do in rural Ireland, while the kids are there, he or she is not supposed to be anywhere close to them. You might go out to the clothesline to bring out the washing but the legislation says that you are not supposed to leave at any stage if the person looking after the kids is not trained. It is just madness. What we are doing is the Civil Service gone mad with regulation again. We are trying to bring in the same rules for a crèche taking care of 100 kids as for someone taking care of three. The people who do this type of work will not fill out the paperwork or go through that process. They will just get out. That is it.

We should think outside the box and consider what would help parents. As I have said, nobody has a problem with getting Garda vetted. Why do we not just say that, if the children are being minded by someone up or down the road, the parent will be given a tax credit while the other system will apply where the children are going to a crèche? We should facilitate all sides because there are a few things that are going to go wrong here. There is something like 6,000 or 6,500 children being minded in small set-ups that are minding one or two youngsters rather than in the crèches. It is my understanding that approximately 6,000 of them are being minded by 2,800 or 3,000 people. That is about two children for every one carer. If they leave, and all signs suggest they will, we will end up putting pressure on the system.

The Minister has done a good bit. I give him credit for the help he has given the crèches and so on. I am not here to castigate anyone but we need to listen to what is going on. It is hard for the Minister because he is from a city constituency but, if he knew anything about the more rural areas, he would know that it is always someone up or down the road who will mind the children. I know that relations can do it. I have a grandchild who comes to the house regularly. He gets picked up from the crèche, having finally got into one. The Minister is not even thinking of shift work and other different types of work. If you were off this week, the local person down the road would have no problem and the child would not go over. If you were doing a night shift, that person would oblige you. That is the flexibility we have with those people.

The one thing I ask of the Minister is to leave the exemption in. I am only talking about an exemption for up to four kids, no more. If it gets bigger, that is it. However, that is needed. It facilitates younger couples who are trying to pay off mortgages and who may be trying to get a child into crèche. You could be waiting six, eight or 18 months to get a child into a crèche. While you are waiting, you need someone to look after your child.

I do not want to oppose the Bill. When the Minister starts talking, I ask him to tell us whether he will provide that exemption. I do not want to be calling votes or anything but I feel very strongly that these people will walk away. We know the nuts and bolts of the rural areas. I listened to the Minister and he said he was going to listen to rural people's voices. I ask him to consider this rather than us having to call a vote on it and having to argue over and back. I do not mind Garda vetting or anything like that. There is no problem that way. However, we do not see the problem that will fester in many areas where there may not be accommodation or facilities for children. Many crèches close at 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. If you were held up, the people I am talking about would always facilitate the family. I ask the Minister to consider that and to comment on it when he speaks again. I am not going to take up a heap of time on it.

Our kids were reared by a neighbour and I could not praise them enough. Does the Minister think that person would go at it today? There is not a chance. There is talk of Tusla and so on. It is like using a big whip on a small industry that helps a great many people around this country. I have no problem with the regulation of crèches and all of that but we are starting to go over the top with a lot of this. I agree that child safety is of the utmost importance but it should be remembered that parents will not drop their children to someone up or down the road without having them checked out better than any State agency ever could. They will make sure. They know the person well and are probably his or her friends.

Generally, the person minding the children, the mother of that house, would have reared a family or would be rearing a family. They would be picked out as leaders in society. We are now going to drive them away with something we love in this country, the increased regulation of a service no one could put a price on. You cannot put a price on the flexibility of someone doing things like that for you. To be frank, you sometimes would not even pay them. I remember them buying the kids a jumper or trousers or giving them something at Christmas. They would also feed them. No one can put a price on a happy little home like that for kids.

Now we are going to try to regulate them out, because the fear is the big thing. Providers are not being listened to. We will hear the story that there were three or four representatives or whatever, but we are often on committees and express our view and we hear back that such a person was consulted and so on, but the policy drives on in the same direction. I am asking the Minister to leave that little bit in it so we can continue with those great people who have been giving, are giving and I hope will continue to give us that service, especially in the rural areas and the smaller towns. If this legislation comes in the way it is, we will end up losing those people. We will have lost another part of the fabric of our society and all because of legislation.

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