Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I will follow on from Deputy McGuinness's remarks. We welcome anything that will improve the situation for whistleblowers and people who make protected disclosures. So many have had negative experiences. I have dealt with many people in those circumstances. I have spoken to people who have horrific stories to tell of situations that are happening in Departments in different parts of the country. They want to come forward and talk about it, but they have seen how others are treated and they will not do it. They come to Deputies and whisper about it. We do not know the truth or otherwise of what they tell us, but we trust that they are telling us the truth and we report it. Naturally enough, because we are not the core source, nothing happens. It is a continuous situation, and we are never going to get any sense of justice in this country as long as that is going on.

Maurice McCabe was the big example and John Wilson, and others were in a similar situation. They put their heads on the block and they were ostracised by their colleagues for so doing. A rat nailed to the door was done not just to them but to hundreds of others in similar circumstances around the country in various employments, often for the State as well as for other bodies outside of the State, in private industry. The banking service was one of the big areas where an awful lot of that sort of thing happened. You turned a blind eye and were loyal to the firm even though you knew what was going on was wrong. If you said anything about it, you were in trouble. That is the situation we must get to grips with. There seems to be a problem in that regard. As long as we allow it to go on in State institutions, then how can we possibly tackle it in private institutions? We cannot. While this legislation is welcome, I am very doubtful that it will change one thing in this State because there is no will among the senior people in any of the Departments to change it.

A garda told me once that he reported a particular situation to a chief superintendent. The chief superintendent called him to one side and said: "Don't mess with city hall." That was it. He said: "Drop it, or we'll be sending you to some far end of the country and there you'll stay." There are thousands of magnificent people in the Garda Síochána who do their very best all the time, but the notion that they have to be loyal to each other, even beyond the public good, is a big problem in that organisation. I know work is being done in that regard and there is legislation being drafted, but until the culture changes, we have got a big problem. When that is the situation in the institution that is at the coalface of delivering justice, what is it like in other institutions and organisations? I welcome the legislation. We need to do more in this field, but I am completely at a loss as to how it will change unless heads are going to roll at the very top of many of the organisations in this country. I do not see that happening.

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