Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I would like to share time with Deputy Brendan Howlin. Over the past seven months, the Government and State have made some big asks of the Irish people and here we are again. Businesses have closed, hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs, especially in the past week, lives have been completely disrupted and turned upside down, and society in many ways has ground to a halt, all in the name of defeating this deadly virus that has taken so many lives and remains such a threat. We are making all these sacrifices because the alternative does not bear thinking about. There is no doubt that we will count the cost of this pandemic for many years to come. It needs to be said at the outset of this debate that the people have, by and large, played a blinder in their attempts to defeat the virus. The majority of people have and we must acknowledge that. The example shown by tens of thousands of people in the HSE, by public servants, those working in front-line services, both private and public, by many businesses, by workers and by volunteers has been incredible. It is something we have never seen in our lifetime.

I am saying this at the start of the debate because this Bill is a step change in the Government's approach to dealing with the virus. While the Labour Party will support this Bill, we do so with great and sincere reservations. If the threat of the virus to human life and our society was not as great as it is, there is simply no way that we would contemplate supporting a Bill such as this. Even with it being as great a threat as it is, we believe that this issue needs to be considered very carefully. In general, we regrettably see the need to have a deterrent in place for irresponsible individuals, people who think that this virus is a hoax, or who oppose the public health guidelines based on conspiracy theories, people who deliberately and explicitly ignore public health guidelines, putting everyone else in danger, or those who simply use this situation for their own ideologically warped purposes.

Before going through the contents of the Bill and setting out my party's position, I want to make a point to the Minister and to everyone here. This is not the way that we should be doing business. A Bill such as this, which provides for on-the-spot fines for contravening public health guidelines, should not be rushed through the Dáil in a single day. The Minister probably agrees with this. He would be dancing around if he was in opposition. It certainly should be rushed through the Dáil in a single day having been published less than 48 hours previously. It is completely wrong, disproportionate and downright dangerous. Amendments to this Bill will not be discussed. We will get to the first one and that will be it. The Minister said this has only been drafted this week. I find that hard to take. The pandemic has been going on for seven months, so surely preparation was in place?

The substance of this Bill is in section 3, which states: "The Minister may make regulations prescribing such one or more penal provisions as are specified in the regulations to be fixed penalty provisions." In plain English, those are on-the-spot fines. This is a key point. The Bill does not lay out what the offences will be that will be subject to the on-the-spot fines but has given the Minister the power for such regulations to specify the fines. The Labour Party believes that those regulations need to be examined in the Dáil before they come into force. We will support amendments that have been tabled to give that effect. We are a responsible Opposition party. We do not oppose things for the sake of opposing them. We are saying directly to the Government and the Minister that they need to listen carefully to us and other Opposition parties on this issue.

Public buy-in is essential. While I believe there is widespread but considered public support for these measures, I also believe that this public support could collapse if the Government gets it wrong. What offences will be subject to such on-the-spot fines? With all due respect to this Government, given the volume of continual blunders, with another this week, that it has made on all of these issues, it does not exactly inspire confidence in me, my party or many others. The Labour Party believes that the correct approach is for regulations to be brought before the Dáil before they come into force and I want the Minister to consider that. There will be grey areas and difficult calls and we owe it to the public and to the individual men and women of An Garda Síochána, who will enforce these rules, to ensure that the Government gets it right.

Section 4 deals with the process by which a member of An Garda can issue an on-the-spot fine and the methods by which it can be paid. It is important to say that on-the-spot fines for traffic offences are cut and dried issues. Someone either was over the speed limit or parked on a double yellow line. Public health guidelines are far more complex and gardaí will be dealing with a far more difficult situation. Common-sense policing will be vital if it is to be a success and continue to have public support. We also need to ensure that there is equality of treatment, and I would appreciate if the Minister for Justice and Equality could listen rather than use her phone. We need equality of treatment because the virus does not respect different social settings. It does not care what setting it is in, whether somebody is from an affluent setting, a working-class housing estate, a rural area or an urban area. Everybody has to be treated the same. I ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to clarify to the Dáil that gardaí will take a common-sense approach when dealing with these situations and that enforcement will be a last resort. It would be helpful if the Minister would assure the public that people will not be penalised for inadvertently breaching the guidelines. This is an important issue of civil liberties and we believe that the Government needs to set matters out clearly through the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Section 5 deals with house parties and other indoor events. I am pleased that An Garda Síochána will not be given the power to enter houses. Even though we support the public health efforts, we would not support this Bill if that was the case. Gardaí will have the power to knock on the door, ask to speak to the organiser and take his or her details as necessary. Given the difficult circumstances we are in, this is the right approach. It is balanced between civil liberties and the need to enforce the regulation, which gives the gardaí the ability to make their presence known without intruding into a person's home. I stress that the Minister must come back to the Dáil with the regulations that set out what will be subject to the on-the-spot fines. As we all know well, public buy-in is vital in everything that we are doing to defeat this virus. If we get this wrong, the Government will lose the dressing room. It will lose the public.

If the regulations are nonsensical and contradictory or if the public can see they are not fair or are not being fairly implemented, they could easily become counterproductive. How the Minister for Health and the Minister for Justice provide these, implement them and ensure they are enforced must be done with great balance and very delicately. I hope the Ministers listen to us and consult the Dáil and Seanad on these rules before they come into force. While that might require some humility from the Minister for Health, it is a small sacrifice to make when we are dealing with such legislation.

Finally, I wish to comment on An Garda Síochána. Ms Antoinette Cunningham, general secretary of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, and the AGSI have made some valid points about this legislation. The AGSI has concerns about practical enforcement and the possible undermining of policing by consent. We are putting An Garda Síochána in an invidious position. It will have to make some fairly close calls. We must support the Garda and ensure gardaí are not left in a difficult situation. We must see how these regulations work out and how they will be managed. We must learn quickly, and the Garda must be supported in doing that. I am not comfortable with An Garda Síochána being left in circumstances in which it is not clear how it should implement something. We must work with the Garda very closely, particularly in the coming weeks when this legislation is passed.

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