Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I admit that I love to hear Members from Fianna Fáil referring to "the crash" as if it was something that just happened and over which they had absolutely no control. The two Deputies in the previous exchange are members of parties that were capable of agreeing the previous four budgets, so it is a bit rich for Deputy McGuinness to complain when both the parties were involved in the process. This will not help small and medium enterprises and they do not want to hear about it. They want to hear that the Minister understands the problem.

I take the point about start-ups but it is not helpful for the Minister of State to say microfinancing is normally very risky. This is not the same and we are not talking about a couple of young fellows with a dream. These are viable businesses that may have had to close because of a global pandemic. They want to reopen and get back on their feet. They are looking for a hand up and not a dig out. For this to happen there must be recognition that this is not microfinance in normal circumstances. These are unprecedented times and they require an unprecedented and imaginative response. There is not the same level of risk as there would be with a start-up. These are proven businesses and, essentially, they are asleep. They just need sustainable and affordable help from the State.

This amendment seeks to cap interest rates at 2%. As I stated, that is not a target but rather a cap. I welcome the Minister of State's offer to engage and I am more than happy to do that. It would be a useful exercise.

I echo the comments of Deputy McGuinness on small and medium enterprises and the belief they have not been listened to. As the Minister of State, Deputy English, has stated, it may be the case that we were in the middle of a global pandemic and perhaps there was not time for that to happen. Time is there now and these businesses must be absolutely central, as must be the representatives of workers, when the Government puts together its July stimulus. It must respond to the needs of businesses and workers. This recovery will not be built on the back of precarious employment and low wages. If there is to be a recovery at all, it must be built on decent jobs and work and fair terms and conditions of employment.

As I stated, the amendment seeks to cap interest rates at 2% and that is in no way outrageous. The Minister of State has said nobody is trying to seek to profit from this but we must absolutely factor in that this is not microfinance in the normal run of things. This is not microfinance for start-ups but for viable businesses, and that must be reflected in the response and the interest rates in particular.

See this speech in context