Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am conscious that Deputy Catherine Murphy, who probably has to leave now, and Deputy McGuinness were not here for the whole debate. To reiterate, it is not that we are disagreeing with the need for businesses to have access to low-cost finance - that is what we are trying to achieve - but the microfinance loan is only one mechanism and does not comprise all the mechanisms.

Eight or nine years ago I supported the idea of a State-led recovery bank for small and medium enterprises and I championed the cause in committees. I was surprised a version of that in the microfinance loan, which was a small intervention of direct lending not through normal banks, did not see a higher demand. The application process indicated there was not much demand then, although there is a demand for the product now. That is why we are increasing the amounts that can be loaned and decreasing the rate charged. The demand was not there, so the Deputy is not technically correct in saying the previous Government got everything wrong. Access to finance did not continue to be the massive issue I thought it would be in the earlier years of that recession. Many still did not get the finance they needed and in some cases the banks did not facilitate success for everybody but there was a massive recovery in jobs, growth and the economy.

It is not true to say the previous two Governments failed in this respect. That is not to say they got everything perfect and there are still many areas of the country that had not recovered even before the onset of Covid-19. We will continue to work on that. It was not necessarily all down to access to finance. I would have agreed with the Deputy nine years ago that the State had to be involved with direct lending. We did so but the demand for it was lower than what I thought it would have been. That is probably because the credit guarantee scheme was very successful. We are expanding that as well and the legislation will be here next week or the week after. It is an important part of the process. This type of direct lending, the microfinance loan, is for a targeted market that is generally a high risk. I stressed during my contribution how the applications to this process have changed and there is evidence of very viable businesses applying that are just going through a difficult time. We are trying to respond to that as quickly as possible.

I have committed to looking at the interest rate and I do not see it as the barrier that the Deputy says it is. Access to funding is a major obstacle and that is why we want to get money to these businesses as quickly as possible. This is a not-for-profit organisation and we are not profiteering on the interest rate. It has come down from 8% to 4%, with a six-month moratorium. It is effectively a zero cost for six months and costs will naturally go up after this.

I have listened to the argument and we will focus on this as we put the scheme together in the weeks ahead. The State must, through its Departments, reach out to as many sectors as possible to sustain, grow and restart as many businesses and jobs as possible. This does not mean we can give grants to everybody but we must intervene where we can with grants, equity, access to loans and so on. We must use all the different tools in the box. We do not have a bottomless purse, as much as we wish we had, but we must use what we have in taxpayers' money. We will also borrow extensively to reach out to all the sectors we can to save those jobs. This is not to say the Government does not recognise the demand or need for grants. We know about it and we will try to respond as best we can.

The changes in this legislation include the availability of money at low interest and an easier application process. It is a streamlined process, although it is limited to €50,000. Businesses probably need more but there are other schemes for such cases. This is only one access point and there are also restart grants. Businesses have indicated to me that the most important tool in recent months has been the wage subsidy scheme and they want that to continue.

I take issue with Deputy McGuinness saying that businesses feel they have not been listened to. I accept that during the past three or four months of the emergency they may not have had enough time to be listened to properly, but I understand the previous Minister, Deputy Humphreys, engaged quite a lot with all the sectors during recent months to bring forward supports. Other Ministers did likewise. As the lead Minister in my Department, the Tánaiste has engaged over the past week and even before that with such issues. Both the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, and I are already sending messages to all sectors to come to us quickly with initial ideas for the July stimulus, which is not yet finished. We will take ideas from everybody who contributed in the Dáil yesterday and today. I would love to sit down with Deputy McGuinness to hear his ideas too. We will take all of them in and do what we can in this July stimulus. We will return around the time of the budget with the long-term economic recovery plan.

We will of course listen to all the sectors and representative bodies of businesses because they have many good ideas. It is our job as a Department to engage with such stakeholders, use those ideas and apply our imagination. We will not be limited in our imagination in trying to expand these schemes. Naturally, we will look abroad and take on board ideas for good schemes. We are very open to that.

I take issue with the comment that nobody is being listened to. We have a proven track record as a Department that we listen to everybody. The former Minister, Deputy Bruton, and I involved every stakeholder we could find in the country in the Action Plan for Jobs. They played a major role in what was a major jobs recovery. It can be done and it will be done again. This does not mean we got everything right but it certainly does not mean we got everything wrong.

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