Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach's reply is quite frivolous. I never suggested there was not crime in Dublin. If we turn on the news any day of the week we can see how horrific the situation is in the city. Ordinary members of An Garda Síochána, however, will confirm that in Dublin they can get backup within minutes from another station or benefit from other resources. In Carrick-on-Suir, however, it would be necessary to wait for two hours for assistance while it could be three hours in places like Ballyporeen or Toomevara. That is the difference. We do not have the numbers in those places.

I never suggested that people were not innocent until proven guilty. I ask the Taoiseach to be honest and to tackle the scourge of, the waste in and the abuse of the free legal aid system. I of course believe in free legal aid but it should be a case of two strikes and then a person is out. We had promises from the former Minister for Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald - she has now gone to Europe and I wish her well - that we would reform this system. It has not been reformed, however. Something is blocking the reform of this system. It is a scandal to be able to go into any court any day of the week and see the carry on. I am referring to what is happening outside on the steps as well as inside the court itself. Marauding gangs are getting the best of lawyers while ordinary victims have to pay for legal representation and pay dearly. They are not able to afford that and they have to cut their cloth according to their measure, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle told me.

The amount of money being spent on legal aid is ridiculous while people are being terrorised in their homes by these marauding gangs. I ask the Taoiseach not to try to paint me as acting for rural Ireland and forgetting about the city. I ask him as well not to try to paint me as stating that people are not entitled to legal aid. They are of course. The concept of being innocent until proven guilty is very important to me.

I know all about it and ask the Government to, please, deal with the situation. Its members trot out figures about resources, but we just do not have them. The Government must cut out the waste and tackle the fat cats who are getting the money. It does not want to touch them at all, nor does any of the bigger parties. That is where the rot is.

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