Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

On the previous occasion we debated this mother and baby home it was with a specific focus on what one can describe as nothing more than the atrocities that had occurred in Tuam. At the time, the Taoiseach spoke about the culpability of the State and society, but I reiterate what I said that day that the State is not some anonymous set of officials. The reality is that in those mother and baby homes the State permitted the outsourcing of its responsibility - a constant theme in the failings of the State. The prevailing attitude towards the women and children who were consigned to these institutions was perpetrated by every arm of the State - the Garda, the medical profession, the political system - thus allowing this particular religious order to impose a very cruel regime.

There has been some talk about abuse or neglect. I visited the site a month or six weeks ago and saw the list of those where there were death certificates. I looked at the very young ages of the children who had died. Given the sheer numbers of them, it is difficult to conclude that it was anything other than cruelty and neglect at work there.

The legacy of these acts are current for some generations and they are at best one generation removed. The relatives of these women and children are still alive. In 1995, as I stated on the previous occasion, children playing on the site discovered human remains but it was not the gardaí who were called; it was a priest. He was called to bless the site. It seemed that everybody went about their business afterwards. The State, at that point, turned a blind eye. I simply do not understand it.

When there were human remains unearthed in the context of road works in Celbridge in the vicinity of the Famine graveyard there, the gardaí were called. It was identified that they were historical remains. These were brought to Collins Barrack. A year later, a respectful interment took place on the same general site. We knew the age of deceased and what they died from. Even for such historic remains, that information could be discovered. I cannot understand why similar forensic work has not been undertaken on the remains discovered on this site. In 2014, when Ms Catherine Corless's work disclosed the extent of the problem, international attention was paid to it, and not unremarkably so. I asked on that day - I suppose it was an instinctive emotional feeling - why was this not declared a crime scene. I just could not understand why it was not declared a crime scene and why there would not be a Garda involvement, even in what is being proposed. I would have thought it was self-evident that such would be required.

It strikes me that one legacy issue with which we are familiar in relation to Northern Ireland is the disappeared. We all feel a sense of relief when another set of remains are found. For many, the disappeared were in Tuam and we have to give it the same kind of attention. We have to consider it in the same terms because they, equally, require closure. I think of how Mr. Peter Mulryan has been trying to find out about his sister and he realises that for him there is a time limit on this. I am concerned that we will do something that will be very protracted. Where there is understandable anxiety for people at what will happen in the site, that anxiety is heightened for many by virtue of the fact that there is nothing happening on the site now.

I cannot understand why we would not invite people to say what they know at this stage - it probably will happen in the context of this process - because in this country, whether one is religious or not, there is great respect for the ceremony when somebody dies. We see it as something that one must be respectful of. I am trying to figure out in my head what kind of ceremony or absence of a ceremony would have taken place for a three year old, a four year old or a six month old. What happened when they died? What happened immediately after that? How did they get to where they were found, I suppose, discarded more than buried? There were people who knew. They had to know. There is an obligation on people to come forward if they know anything.

The point that has been made on improved communication is critical. The people can be called a lot of things, for instance, stakeholders, but actually they are family. In the main, we need to call them family. We need to treat them as one would treat those who have a member of their family missing. I am pleased to see that communication piece in this. It is critically important that people are treated with that humanity and respect.

Speed is important. It needs to be done right, but something that is very lengthy will add to the stress. I accept there is probably a range of different views, but doing nothing or promising something will happen in the future will add to the torture that people are feeling.

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