Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I congratulate and thank Deputy Jim Daly for bringing the Bill forward, as I know the issue is something he has persisted with over a long period, drawing on his own experience. I will support the Bill, although that is not to say it is perfect in all respects. It needs the sort of discussion that Deputy Thomas Byrne and others spoke about.

At the centre of our programme for Government we are trying to make life a bit easier for people in every walk of life and particularly the education system. There is no doubt that citizens have higher expectations than they had before and we in the political and public service system must move to respond to those expectations. One of those is that where there are legitimate grievances, they get an outlet and there is a port of call where the grievances may be aired and dealt with. It is a very important principle that Deputy Daly's Bill enshrines.

In response to some of the points from Deputies Byrne, Nolan and Lahart, we do not want to pretend we can shift to an ombudsman the proper role of schools and boards. We are very keen that we move to have a proper parents' charter, where the expectation of parents from the education system is clearly set out, meaning that in 99% of cases, grievances will be managed within a school on the good principle of subsidiarity and dealing with a case at a proper level. As Deputy Daly noted, I am aware that such a system will only work and be robust if at the end of the day there is recourse to appeal to some other higher authority where an issue may be teased out. Like Deputy Lahart, I recognise the voluntary nature of boards, although they play a very important role in our most valuable asset, as Deputy Daly noted. It is important that their commitment is underpinned by the sort of professionalism that accountability offers. That is important in this Bill.

Deputy Nolan argued that we should - and we will - seek in parallel with Deputy Daly's Bill to furnish the proper procedures in section 28 that have been dormant, as noted by Deputy Byrne. We will bring forward a parents' charter in a legislative head that will go to the committee at the same time as it will consider the ombudsman issue. We will see what principles we expect a school to operate with respect to a parents' charter. The principles will include elements of information, respect, dealing with grievances and so on. Guidelines will be provided by the Minister for Education and Skills and there will be powers for the Minister in cases where a charter has not been put in place. In reference to what Deputy Daly is providing, there will be recourse, where the charter is not respected, and one will be able to go to an ombudsman. It is an important principle we should seek to enshrine that is complementary to Deputy Daly's Bill. As Deputy Byrne noted, a sort of vacuum was left in that the provision was dormant and was never properly dealt with. I intend to go to Government as soon as we return and be in a position when the committee considers this to furnish it with the heads for a provision dealing with the matter.

Deputy Nolan is right that we must look again at the notion of making this legally binding, taking in compellability. Deputy Daly acknowledged that in his contribution. The power of an ombudsman over the years has come from an authority rather than a directive power or recourse to the District Court to enforce a power. That would be a very significant change of direction from what we conceive as an ombudsman, so we need to consider such a provision very closely on Committee Stage. One of the powers of an ombudsman service is they are independently appointed, with a constitutional independence. Their accountability is not to a Minister but to the Dáil. It is a very important element of what is an ombudsman, giving a strength that no agency under the control of the Minister would have. It is a valuable and powerful authority. As Deputy Daly acknowledged, only in one case has a body failed to acknowledge and respond to an ombudsman.

There is an issue that has been correctly raised as to whether there should be a Children's Ombudsman and an ombudsman for education, or whether they should be separate institutions. It is something we will have to examine. I have come from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, where we set up a Workplace Relations Commission. Adjudicators there hear cases, sometimes under the equality pillar of the legislation and sometimes under the employment rights pillar. They are different but there are no problems. The same service of adjudication may occur in each section. There is potential to establish an education ombudsman but have it administered by the same personage as the Children's Ombudsman. There can be a separate provision.

Deputy Daly is accurate in saying that in a considerable number of cases that go to the Children's Ombudsman coming from the education sphere, there are three barriers of proving adverse effect, showing inappropriate administration and the issue being solely relating to administrative purposes. They can prevent some cases being heard. If we can furnish on Committee Stage a route to an ombudsman that is not hampered in such a way, we could see the cases that concern Deputy Daly reaching a satisfactory resolution with this legislation. This does not deal with third level education and it does not purport to do so. Section 28 concerns schools and third level issues are not addressed in the Bill. I do not propose that we seek to address them on Committee Stage as they raise a different set of legislative principles. We are dealing with the Education Act 1998. Deputy Micheál Martin steered it through and I was on the Opposition benches at the time, so I remember it well.

I am conscious of the time. It is important to consider the scope of the Bill and Deputy Lahart asked if it will deal with teachers.

The ordinary Ombudsman does not deal with public servants and the many grievances they might have with their employer. It is not intended to be that sort of provision and I do not think we are seeking to break into ground of that nature.

It is also important to note, as Deputy Jim Daly has made clear, that this is about ensuring that schools and boards deal with complaints in a proper way. It does not mean that the ombudsman tries the substance of the complaint. However, he or she must seek assurance that the complaint has been dealt with in a proper way and in accordance with the circulars, directions or policy framework of the day. It is not for the ombudsman to reinvent a policy framework but to ensure that parents or their children are properly heard in respect of their complaints. It is important to understand the limitations. This is not moving into the territory of directing a Minister to provide more resources in X or Y areas; that is not the remit of an ombudsman. It is important that we understand that difference.

This is valuable legislation. Deputy Jim Daly has established clearly that there is a large body of complaints in this area, with some 47% of the cases going to the Ombudsman for Children relating to education, and there is a level of dissatisfaction with how such complaints can be dealt with currently.

We have scope in this Bill to complement the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill, which will be dealing with a particular part of what parents can expect from a school but not the whole. That is what Deputy Daly is trying to broaden. The admissions policy will have directive power in respect of certain elements of admissions and we will debate that on Committee Stage in due course.

I am pleased to support the Bill. I hope Deputy Carol Nolan, who has raised legitimate concerns, will see that we can deal with some of the weaknesses about which she is rightly concerned on Committee Stage. Deputy Daly has acknowledged that the Bill may need modification. I hope that together we can create legislation that will be effective and helpful and that will improve the capacity of parents and children to get the best from the education system while providing the highly professional and committed people within our education system with the knowledge that there is the underpinning, accountability and assurance that access to an ombudsman will give our education services.

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