John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

At the outset, as this is the final speech I will be making in this session of the Dáil, I thank the Ceann Comhairle and the staff of his office for their kindness and efficiency in making my job as a TD so enjoyable in this first term. I would be grateful if the Ceann Comhairle could pass those sentiments on to them.

I am grateful to Deputy Jim Daly for bringing forward this Bill. It is a provocative Bill and some of the points that Deputy Carol Nolan made and some of the questions that she raised are extremely valid and need to be teased out at the next Stage. Rather than going over any of the ground that my colleague, my party's spokesperson on education, Deputy Thomas Byrne, raises, there are only a few other matters I would like to raise.

A question that was going through my mind as Deputy Jim Daly was talking about this was whether this was an ombudsman for schools or an ombudsman for education because most of the buttons he pressed were related to the performance management and some aspects of primary and post-primary schools. That is one question that would need to be addressed.

As the House will be aware, the existing Ombudsman's office covers some aspects of education and, as the previous speaker mentioned, the office of the Ombudsman for Children covers many of these aspects too. Therefore, there is much to tease out on it.

I note too there is a much more democratic voice in some of the evolving school models. Deputy Thomas Byrne mentioned the education and training boards, ETB, model which is a very democratic model. I served for two years on the board of the old vocational education committee, VEC, and was really impressed at the manner in which those boards were run, in which meetings were run and in which business was taken. As Deputy Jim Daly will be aware, the difference between those and the traditional board of management of a religious-run secondary school is that as a last resort parents have recourse to a public representative who is sitting on the board, at least, to bring those issues forward, but ultimately must take the final word of the chief executive also, which is a kind of weakness in the system.

Third-level colleges are already covered by one of the Ombudsmen but to what degree, whether it is a comprehensive coverage or what are the issues, I am not quite sure.

Deputy Jim Daly correctly pointed out, as did Deputy Thomas Byrne, that we need to pay tribute to the boards of management because it is a completely voluntary services that parents and members of the community have provided for generations, and it is not Deputy Jim Daly's intention to override this. Parents give of their time and in many cases their expertise with absolutely no reward. That is becoming a more pressurised position for parents who volunteer for these boards. The last thing we want - it is a fear I have about this - is to discourage those who might otherwise be interested in giving such service to school boards. It might dissuade them from doing it on the basis of the legal requirements or the onerous nature of the position. In 99% of cases, school boards of management are effective. Historically, they have done a good job. However, there are exceptions and that is what Deputy Jim Daly is attempting to address in the Bill and I commend the Bill for that.

I have served on interview boards. Deputy Jim Daly made comments, not in the Chamber but in a preamble, about this. Whatever about the traditional school board model, I have served on interview boards of the former VEC and they were run efficiently. I have seen their appeals mechanism work and I have seen all the administrative machinery implemented in particular cases. I have been really impressed with that. I have come away from that in the full knowledge that everybody was served well, justly and fairly. Not everybody may have been happy with the responses or with the outcome, but at least they know the procedure was fair.

Deputy Jim Daly mentioned correctly - I suppose we all use search engines - that there is a precedent in Australia and some of the areas that they cover.

As public representatives we all have come across parents who have felt frustrated and aggrieved. One of the reasons I would be broadly supportive of this going to another Stage and being teased out line by line in committee is where parents feel aggrieved, frustrated and have no avenue of last resort to go to. Either the school or the patron is the last resort. Of course, this is one consequence of the State keeping education at arm's length for generations.

Deputy Carol Nolan raised the point, which I had noted too, that in all the work the Minister is doing on such issues as admissions policies there may be crossover here. Deputy Jim Daly mentioned in his overview that it would take it in. One issue I have come across quite often is the question of the local school's admissions policy or frustrated parents whose children did not gain admission and feel they are meeting a road block. Those are parents, not parents of children with special needs or anything like that. Often it could be a geographical issue. What kind of crossover here is there with what the Minister has planned? That is a big area for the Minister currently. It is a minefield. What role would the Minister envisage an Ombudsman having in that?

As for issues where someone has done something wrong in a school or where a parent perceives that the school has done something wrong or failed to do something it should have done, or where people feel a staff member or management through a decision acted unfairly, that absolutely needs to be addressed. I do not know whether Deputy Jim Daly envisages an ombudsman covering the kind of services a school offers. What role is there for an ombudsman if a parent chooses recourse because the school is not offering a particular facility, service, course or subject? Is that a role for the ombudsman? This could get bigger and bigger. That is what is going through my head. That is not a political point; it is merely a reasonable point I am making to Deputy Jim Daly. Some of the grounds of complaints in different jurisdictions relate to whether a decision taken was unreasonable or unjust and whether it was contrary to law.

What we do not want is considerable crossover and confusion. In my view, it would be a kind of one-stop-shop that deals with issues that merely are not being addressed currently. What one does not want is an Ombudsman dealing with thousands of petty grievances. While the Ombudsman for Children may say that thousands of its complaints relate to education or children in education, we have no idea of the substance of those complaints.

I agree with Deputy Jim Daly about the existing Ombudsmen in a variety of fields. As Deputy Carol Nolan said, it might be worth looking at whether any of the existing Ombudsmen can take on some of these functions, whether those functions can be shared or whether an ombudsman for education would absorb some of the educational functions of the existing Ombudsmen. I do not know whether Deputy Jim Daly has considered that.

I have some questions to conclude. There is very definitely a need for an appeals mechanism, as has been correctly identified by the Deputy. This is his legislative attempt to overcome that. It is a very valuable service and people will welcome it. There is the issue of how we go from here. Is this meant to serve teachers as well or is it just aimed at parents? There are teachers who have found themselves over the years in particular circumstances in schools and who may have felt frustrated or aggrieved. Their unions or associations may have taken the case and they may have still felt frustrated.

These are some of the questions. Is it just about the rights of parents and children or will teachers come into this as well? If it is the latter, the autumn will be interesting as the Deputy will certainly have attracted the attention of teachers, management and administrative structures, as well as trade unions, teacher organisations and diocesan authorities throughout the country. I am sure they will be sitting up. The Department will have a strong view because for years it has been able to deflect queries and complaints back to the patron or the boards of management, meaning it has been a very frustrating experience for parents.

I am delighted Deputy Jim Daly has raised the issue and there are many questions for him to consider over the recess. Like my colleague, I look forward to seeing this on Committee Stage. I thank him for bringing it forward.

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