Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Few topics have generated the debate and discussion that the topic we are discussing today has. The item has substantially occupied my thoughts in recent weeks and months. I very much respect that there are varying opinions. Regardless of the side of the debate one is on or the perspective from which one arrives at one's conclusions, it is fair to say that we all wish to see the protection of women as paramount.

As a man, I am conscious that I will never go through what some women go through regarding this issue. In that respect I feel somewhat handicapped in terms of giving a true reflection of what should be given. In recent weeks I have spoken extensively to many women and others on all sides. I compliment the people on coming forward, articulating their views and informing the debate. Unlike some in this House, I believe everyone has the right to articulate his or her views and values in an open and respectful manner, including representatives of the Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland, Buddhists, atheists and others. We have a duty and obligation to listen to people's views and, ultimately, to arrive at our own decisions. Having said that, I do not wish to condone the intimidation some Members have experienced.

I commend the Government on allocating appropriate time to discuss this life-changing issue. It is appropriate that it has done so and it is appropriate that the Dáil is sitting today to afford every Member on every side of the House the opportunity to participate in the debate. I hope this is not done as a mere window-dressing exercise and that the Government will listen to the many concerns being articulated from all sides of the House. I compliment my party leader on affording us a free vote on what I believe to be an issue of one's own conscience. The Taoiseach, Tánaiste and leaders of other political parties would have done well to follow that example.

This item has been on the political agenda since 1992. However, it is unfair and disingenuous for Government to claim that nothing has been done or that no attempt was made to try to resolve the issue until now. That is political point scoring on what is a highly sensitive and emotive topic and is not fair. People have also used the tragic and untimely death of Ms Savita Halappanavar as a reason for introducing this legislation. Having seen the report into her death, we all know that had this legislation been in place, the outcome would not have been different, unfortunately.

There are many aspects of the Bill with which I am comfortable, aspects that will give clarity to the medical profession in dealing with issues of physical illness which will ensure Ireland will remain one of the safest places in the world to have a baby. However, there are aspects of the Bill with which I have grave reservations and concerns. We have seen the tragedy of suicide devastate many families and communities. Unfortunately we have seen an alarming increase in the rate of suicide in recent years. Every week, Deputies from various political parties articulate the need for the Government and the general body politic to do something to address this awful issue. I acknowledge the Government allocated €35 million to this last year, but there is the need to ensure it was fully spent and that the €35 million allocated to it this year will all be spent to ensure our communities have the necessary resources to support people with mental health difficulties.

We all agree with the need to remove the stigma that has been attached for all too long to a person and perhaps even to the family of a person who had committed or died by way of suicide. However, based on what Dr. Tony Bates of Headstrong said recently, we must be extremely careful that we do not go too far and normalise the taking of one's life. By specifically including this provision in the Bill, perhaps unintentionally that is what could happen. While I am not an expert on mental health, I have been involved locally in an advocacy group.

I have brought experts in this field to talk to people in our communities to ensure they know that it is good to talk and that people know there are alternative options.

I wish to share a personal experience with the Dáil which has brought me to my position on this debate. I was a pupil of a boarding school some years ago. On a particular night, having arrived back at the dormitory, I was faced with a friend who had just taken an overdose. At that time he was in a very dark place in his life as a result of an issue that occurred in his family. Thankfully, we got him help and support and through the fullness of time he came out of that dark place. Now, he is living a normal and full life.

I do not subscribe in any way to the view of people who say that we do not trust women or that they might be making up the claim that they are suicidal simply to get an abortion. I trust the women of Ireland. However, in my experience just because a person may be suicidal at one time does not mean that the thought or ideation will remain with that person indefinitely. We should do things differently if we really want to support women in a difficult position as a result of unplanned pregnancy, and this is what we are talking about. For any woman going through a planned pregnancy, it is probably one of the happiest developments or news in her life when she realises she has finally conceived. However, in terms of an unplanned pregnancy we should put in place the necessary supports to help them to deal with the various difficulties they face.

I sat through 90% of the latest Oireachtas hearings, I listened to psychiatrists during the course of the hearings and I met several psychiatrists in my constituency. The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Creighton, alluded to this point earlier. We have all received correspondence signed by 113 psychiatrists who have stated that there is no medical evidence to support an abortion or termination as a treatment for suicide. I have grave reservations. I refer to two eminent people in their professions. Professor Veronica O'Keane stated: "I would completely agree with the evidence given by the other witnesses that the best way to manage and help women with serious mental illness is to treat the mental illness." Dr. Seán Ó Domhnaill, a psychiatrist with experience in perinatal psychiatry stated: "In my experience, as in the experience of all the psychiatrists who have given evidence here this week, abortion has never been indicated and is not reported in any journal or textbook as being a treatment for either mental illness or depressive disorder." It is not only me or other Members who are saying this.

I also have grave reservations in terms of the lack of term limits in this legislation. We could envisage a scenario whereby to conform with our constitutional obligation under Article 40.3.3° a baby is prematurely induced and thereby may have a high risk of developing incurable conditions such as cerebral palsy, autism or other conditions such that the child could be left severely disabled for the rest of his life. These are two of my main concerns about this legislation.

Some people have said that despite one's personal beliefs when a Member is elected, he is elected as a legislator and must legislate accordingly. Some people have said that the only reason this legislation is before the Dáil is as a result of the Supreme Court decision of 1992. We all acknowledge that the Supreme Court and the High Court are the highest courts in the land and, ultimately, they will give their opinion and assessment on our Constitution. However, it also worth noting that during the course of the Oireachtas hearings the retired Supreme Court judge, Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness, stated that she did not believe the Government had a legal obligation to legislate. Dr. Maria Cahill of UCC stated that we are not obliged to act on the basis of the A, B and C v. Ireland judgment because those cases involved physical and medical risks to the mothers' lives and as such they were not relevant to abortion on threat of suicide. She believed that we could remove the issue of suicide while conforming to the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights.

While I am prepared to fulfil my constitutional duty as a legislator, I do not believe, having listened to expert medical witnesses and legal opinion, that we do not need to legislate for this. I remain to be convinced of the need to include the threat of suicide as real and substantial threat to the life of the mother. I do not say as much lightly nor do I come to it with the view that my beliefs are stronger or deeper than others or that my conscience is in any way purer than someone coming to it from a different perspective. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, my position is derived from my personal experience of dealing with someone who was suicidal at one time in his life and who subsequently received the appropriate treatment and support. As a result, at a later time he was no longer suicidal.

I do not concur with the view of previous speakers who have said that when we talk about this it is as if we do not trust the women of Ireland. I trust the women of Ireland and I support the women of Ireland, but I believe we would be far better placed to support the women of Ireland by putting in place the necessary supports, resources, counselling and psychiatric assistance to help them to deal with any unwanted or unplanned pregnancy.

I hope that the wide-ranging debate the Government has facilitated is not a mere window-dressing exercise for it to be able to say that it afforded everyone an opportunity to have their say. I hope this will be an opportunity for the Minister of State, the Minister, the Cabinet and Members of the Government parties to take on board the many reservations and deeply-held concerns of many other Members when the Government brings forward the legislation on Committee Stage.

The Minister has alluded to the fact that amendments will be accepted. I hope they will not only be technical amendments but that real and substantial changes can be made. Reference is made in the Bill to an annual report going to the Minister of the day to ensure the restrictive legislation, as he put it, will not enable wide-ranging access to abortion or the opening of the floodgates in that regard. However, it is not specified or clearly addressed in terms of when the report will be made, whether Members of the Dáil will have an opportunity to debate it and if the report will be discussed by the Joint Committee on Health and Children. One could ask whether the report is a mere window-dressing exercise to soft-soap those who have grave reservations about the Bill. I hope that will not be the case. I would like the report to be given a strong legislative basis. I hope we will have an opportunity to ensure that happens on Committee Stage.

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