Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)

I acknowledge the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy Ring. I am delighted to speak on what is important legislation. I refer to some of the comments made a while ago. I often wonder what planet some people inhabit. It is not that long since we were in the House discussing the report of a tribunal of investigation and the same people from the same side of the House lampooned and lacerated the previous Government and the current one for not bringing forward legislation to amend the Constitution in order that the Houses of the Oireachtas could carry out investigations. Now the same people are saying we are rushing into this. Yesterday, someone from the same group said we were not amending the Constitution quickly enough. It just smacks of opposition for opposition's sake.

Since 1994 it has been proved that the Houses of the Oireachtas has had its hands tied in regard to investigating issues of public importance. This is something the public and politicians on all sides want. The only group of people who might have any degree of opposition to it are people in the Law Library; they currently benefit to a huge degree when it comes to investigating issues of public importance because the only recourse the Oireachtas has at present is the establishment of expensive tribunals. The challenge to certain elements of the Opposition is to come into the House and spell out what they want because I do not believe they know what they want.

I concur with some of the comments made by Deputy Sean Fleming on the importance of the need for the referendum to be framed in such a way that there is a "Yes" vote because as he rightly said, referenda have been presented to the people in a very convoluted way.

I take issue with what Deputy Catherine Murphy said. Just because I am a new Deputy does not mean that I was, in some way, cocooned from what was going on in this country for the past seven or eight years. It is a bit of an insult to newer Members of the Oireachtas that we are somehow not competent to or capable of asking probing questions, in particular in regard to how this country has wound up in the mess it is in today with a banking system which has collapsed and a public which has been left to shoulder the burden of billions of euro of debt. From that point of view, the newer Members of the Oireachtas may well be even more qualified to get stuck into this than some people who may be regarded in Deputy Catherine Murphy's own words as having skipped a generation.

I agree with Deputy Mary Lou McDonald that these cannot be seen as quasi courts. She is quite correct that the only place justice can be administered in this Republic is in the courts. Unfortunately, in the recent history of this country, some people decided they would administer their own sort of justice, so I welcome her comments that there is only one court system in the country and that it and the Constitution it is governed by are respected.

There is a huge departure here in regard to non-officeholders being held accountable. As a previous speaker rightly said, up to now people could refuse to appear. The reality was that committees of investigation basically went nowhere and if one wanted to establish fact, one had to go to Dublin Castle and employ expensive lawyers. Deputy Paschal Donohoe is right that there are no Senator McCarthys here but people who are genuinely concerned about the people who elected them, to establish fact and to get to the bottom of things of significant national public importance.

There is an issue in regard to bias, at which the Minister is looking, and that people would declare an interest. We have a Oireachtas Joint Committee on Investigations, Oversight and Petitions, of which Deputy Peadar Tóibín is Chairman, so the establishment of these investigations will not be done with a wink and a nod. Rigorous procedure will have to be gone through and a resolution of the Houses of Oireachtas will have to be passed also.

Amending the Constitution for something like this is not something into which a government would just walk with its eyes closed. This is only the 30th amendment of the Constitution since 1937, so it is being taken very seriously. That said, the public appetite is for Members of the Oireachtas to do the job they were elected to do. In comparison to colleagues in other parliaments around the world, we are not doing that currently. We are not able to do so because we do not have the powers and the Constitution is silent on us being able to compel people to appear.

I welcome the Bill and hope it will be carried with a resounding "Yes" vote. However, there is a challenge for all Members of the Oireachtas to spell out clearly whether they are in favour of the current system or a system which is less bureaucratic, less cumbersome, cheaper, more effective and delivers a faster result to the public and can enhance democracy. If they do not want that, perhaps they should put forward their alternative.

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