Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

Amendment No. 42 seems to deal with the local loans fund, which states that "the Minister for Finance shall, with the approval of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform". The Minister for Finance retains control of the local loans fund and if he wants to make payments into it, he must consult the Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and reform.

I refer to amendment No.50, which seeks to amend the Finance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1945 in order that the Minister for Finance can exercise his power after consultation with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. In that case it works in the opposite direction. The Minister might explain, in general terms, why as Minister he will have power in respect of certain funds when he consults with the Minister for Finance whereas in respect of others that Minister has the power and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform must consult with him.

I do not describe this as extra red tape but, in regard to consultation generally, does this mean a chat in the corridor or will there be a formal mechanism for consultation? At the end of the process will there be a paper trail showing that a Minister proposed to do such and such and provided documentation to be sent to the relevant Minister, who then signed it, showing there was consultation? Will this consultation process stand up and be testable according to legal scrutiny should there ever be a dispute as to whether functions were performed properly? We do not want to find a gap in the file three years later, with no evidence of consultation. We do not want to be over-bureaucratic about every instance where a Minister could take action without having to consult another Minister but we must now put a new structure in place in respect of this type of consultation. We all know from planning and everything else to do with legislation that if a process is not done properly, whether a consultation in a planning application, an environmental impact statement or any such, it can be found to be faulty. Will we see statutory instruments in respect of the working of this consultation process? We need to see what is backing up the process. The Minister might comment on that.

I presume the local loans fund relates to local authorities. Why is the Minister for Finance retaining control of that particular area? Am I correct to think that this section, in spite of all the areas included, excludes NAMA? Is NAMA being dealt with separately and outside the remit of this legislation? It seems to be outside the remit of this group. Is it being treated as a separate case, strictly under the remit of the Minister for Finance, as is the case now, and will no consultation be required with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform?

It is a question of borrowing and we all know about borrowing requirements. The Minister will be aware that during the past two years all local authorities have received forms in respect of their level of local borrowing and bank account balances. A circular was issued under the EUROSTAT borrowing requirements, looking for statistics in order to build up a picture of our national debt. All local authorities received letters - I believe it was the year before last - stating that they were not allowed to spend any development levy funds they had in their account in the coming year because that balance was intended to make up the overall Government balance. The authorities were allowed spend only the new funds that came into the development account during the course of the year. At the end of the year the requirement was that there not be less in the account than there had been at the beginning of the year. The Minister may recall that, even though he was not directly involved, being in Opposition at the time. It crossed the desk of the Oireachtas Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the previous Dáil.

These measures have implications. Must all these bodies submit monthly or annual returns to one new Department or other in regard to their current bank balances making up the overall Government balance? The Minister might comment on that, and the NAMA situation.

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