Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)

Táim lán-sásta páirt a ghlacadh sa díospóireacht seo.

If Deputy Fleming could cope with the unorthodox process of this, he should spare a thought for a Deputy like me for whom this is the first experience of this process. It has been something of a baptism of fire. I am sure it pales to nothing in comparison with the officials who had to comb through such a vast number of statutes for what is undoubtedly a very complex and perhaps dubious escapade in terms of setting up the two Departments. That is the track we are on and so be it. I share to some degree Deputy Fleming's misgivings about the process, but as the saying goes "we are where we are".

On the substance of the motion before us, I welcome placing of the independence of the Revenue Commissioners on a statutory basis. The Moriarty report and previous experience underline how absolutely critical it is that not alone do we have long-standing conventions or understandings, but as a matter of law independence is explicitly expressed and legally protected.

I welcome that section of the motion. The Government is wise to take this action, notwithstanding that it arrived late on my desk as a matter for consideration. The Government is doing the right thing. I hope it changes matters. I do not wish to cast doubt on the procedures of the Revenue Commissioners but I hope it changes in terms of public confidence and understanding and the political climate. My difficulty with the motion relates more to the NTMA staff. The Minister said that staff seconded to the Department are critical in terms of expertise and skill, and I will not second guess that. I am not convinced by Deputy Fleming's argument that the whole set-up should be taken back into the Department of Finance, although that is probably a discussion for another day.

The Minister said that a memorandum of understanding is being finalised between the Department of Finance and the NTMA in respect of these individuals, but he did not say how many staff we are talking about. What are their contractual arrangements and are they subject to the public sector pay ceiling the Minister announced yesterday? Do they have perks and privileges not enjoyed by others in the Department? I would have to object strongly to any move that creates two tiers of staff within the Department; I think that is wrong, particularly in a scenario where we have a public service recruitment embargo. The Minister is familiar with Sinn Féin's position on remuneration for senior public servants. Deputy Fleming has already alluded to the fact that many are earning salaries that simply cannot be justified in any set of circumstances, much less now when we are in the economic doldrums. The Minister should clarify those matters.

If it is the case that these staff are on exorbitant salaries, and can thumb their noses at the Minister and society at large in respect of over-generous packages, and if their introduction to the Department will create a two-tier system, not alone do I object to it and wish to table an amendment to the Bill, but I will also object to the entire motion on that basis.

I understand the necessity to clarify the legal status of any individual officer acting on behalf of the Minister. There must be absolute legal clarity concerning that matter. I also understand the motivation for introducing this part of the motion and in that respect I support it. However, I would like answers to the specific questions I posed on those matters. We will have a chance to discuss various amendments to the Bill today.

As I said when we initially discussed the legislation here, it strikes me that the element of public sector reform is dwarfed by the emphasis on expenditure, cost control and - dare I say it - an agenda that is clearly about cutbacks. This is a lost opportunity.

Section 8 puts on a statutory footing matters concerning public sector reform, but the Bill's calibration and emphasis are wrong. I hope the flaw in the legislation will not carry through and prove to be a flaw also in the outworking of the Department, as well as the Minister's policy and political agenda. When the Minister replies, I hope he will answer those specific questions about the NTMA's staff.

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