Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)

Obviously one will not meet anyone anywhere who will say that he or she is not in favour of white collar crime being tackled, but I do not accept that the legislation will in any way fundamentally alter the situation. I do not believe it will even scratch the surface to deal with the issue and the affront to taxpayers of us and future generations being burdened with the crimes of those who operated in our banks and many of the developers among others. If we really wish to deal with the issue then a radically different approach is required than has been adopted to date and a real prioritisation of the issues in terms of the political will to deal with it and the provision of the necessary resources. Even since the election of the new Government we have been given a graphic example of different approaches or a two-tier country in which we have different approaches to fraud.

The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, has already indicated she will wage war, all guns blazing on the 780,000 claimants of social welfare. She intends to review all of those cases on the basis of their lifestyle and display of wealth to see whether they may be guilty of fraud. When one wants to talk about lifestyle and display of wealth one should really be talking about the individuals to whom Deputy Catherine Murphy alluded, those highlighted in "Primetime" last night, the likes of Drumm, Dunne and all of the others who are being supported by their wives who never had an independent income prior to what they received from their husbands - serious fraud issues that have been ongoing in this country for decades in many cases and have been proven in many tribunals. Nothing has been done to address them. All of the main parties have been in power when the crimes were perpetrated and the tribunals took place, probably starting with the Goodman tribunal investigating the carousel of cattle being moved back and fro across the Border to avail of EU funds. It was proven to be fraud but, again, nothing was done about it. Mr. Goodman is wealthier now than he was then, although we are told that the practice has ceased, allegedly. I do not accept that the legislation will make a difference at all. We need a different approach.

A very good example to highlight the inadequacies of the situation in this country was seen in The Irish Times during the week involving two separate cases. On the one hand there was the case of Raj Rajaratnam, the US hedge fund billionaire, who was found guilty last week of insider trading, of making $63 million on the back of access to secrets. He faces a sentence of 19 and a half years in jail. The same newspaper dealt with a case in this country of DCC, which was lauding its increased profitability. The company was found guilty by the Supreme Court of insider trading on Fyffes shares and a judgment was awarded against it. An investigation was carried out by the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and a file was sent to the DPP. The response that was sent back contained two words, "No Prosecution".

If we really want to deal with white collar crime then let us examine the role of the DPP. What happened in that case is not good enough. Only recently a pilot scheme has been implemented whereby the DPP will justify his decision to families of people where deaths have occurred. That is unacceptable. The DPP must say why cases are not being prosecuted; in particular when white collar crime is involved, given the impact on society. In all cases the DPP must explain his decisions. There must be more transparency and accountability.

The legislation is a joke unless the intentions are backed up with resources. It is not just a case of money or numbers. Fundamentally, it is a case of the State forces having access to the necessary expertise to deal with the issues, because unless they do then they are always going to be in an unequal relationship. The conference of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors was held last month. Many speakers repeatedly referred to the fact that the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation is, in their own words, "stretched to the limit". We simply do not have the time to give white collar crime the priority it deserves. We do not have half enough resources. Other people referred to the fact that fraud investigation is non-existent as a result of the shortage of manpower, technology and training.

If one compares that with the mobilisation of Garda forces to protect the Queen, it gives a certain indication of where priorities lie. If we are serious about tackling white collar crime, a similar investment must accompany any measures taken in this regard.

Deputy Murphy referred to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, which is similarly understaffed. A staff of 50 is a pathetic number to deal with all the issues facing the office, particularly when a third of that number is tied up with the Anglo Irish Bank investigation. This shows the difficulties faced by the office. It is not just a question of numbers, but also a question of the skills the staff of the office have or do not have. I do not say this to be disrespectful. However, one of the key issues is the mismatch the State has in terms of expert accounting, financial and legal information versus these big corporations which can employ people perfectly skilled at dragging out the process. It is not an equal relationship and the State is always playing catch-up. This legislation does not tip that balance adequately although it may tip it minutely.

Take, for example, the order compelling the supplier of material to identify and categorise documentation rather than dump all the information - as happens currently - snowing the investigators under with the volume of information. This order leaves the onus on the supplier of information, whose professional people can find many creative ways to deal with the issues - resources, ordering, time or whatever - to continue to stall the process. One of the issues we need to look at is the role of the professional organisations - the paid experts - be they legal or financial, who have backed up much of what has gone on in this area, the people who like to give advice about semi-State workers' wages and so on. We saw the Andersen accountancy firm fold as a result of the Enron crisis. We have big accountancy firms here behind much of what is going on, but there is no investigation or regulation of many of the complaints in that regard.

There is a difference in approach to different types of fraud in Irish society. Last year, there were 254 prosecutions for social welfare fraud. Some 165 of those people were fined and eight of them ended up in jail. Some 6,681 people in this country went to jail last year for non payment of fines, but nobody served a jail sentence for white collar crime. If we are serious about dealing with these issues, this is the type of issue we must get to grips with.

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