Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)

Ba mhaith liom mo chomhgairdeachas a gabháil don Aire. I congratulate the Minister and wish him all the best in his portfolio.

I welcome this overdue Bill relating to white collar crime. Recent episodes, particularly the inquiry into the operations of Anglo Irish Bank, have highlighted the need to amend the law on white collar crime. I compliment RTE and the journalists working on "Prime Time Investigates" for highlighting and exposing many of these issues but they are worrying and disconcerting for ordinary taxpayers who are trying to raise their families. The perception is there is one law for the rich and one law for the poor, which is unacceptable. That is a bad message to send out but I do not wish to shoot the messenger. Journalists do a good job in their investigations.

However, recent episodes have been compounded and ordinary people are left shaking their heads with a sense of helplessness and disbelief that people in high profile positions in Anglo Irish Bank, which never had a branch on the high street, are not being prosecuted. We are paying the price for the near ruination of the country for which the bank is responsible and the other banks followed. People see these bankers can leave for foreign shores, live the high life and remain in business - some of them have claimed in recent times to be living on a frugal income. That causes huge anguish and trauma and it is a worrying trend in our society, especially for young people who have attended school and college and cannot get work when they graduate and provide for themselves. It leads to other forms of crime.

A detailed investigation of requirements in this area was conducted by the previous Government. We must complete the passage of Bill, if at all possible, before the summer recess to avoid problems and delays in the investigation and prosecution of white collar crime. Fraud and corruption is being exposed at many levels and the latest scandal relating to the NCT is another example. I do not blame anybody because everybody is innocent until proven guilty but we have to restore people's faith in all our systems and, in particular, in our legal system.

Recently the Master of the High Court, Mr. Edmund Honohan, commented on cases coming before the courts and the extent to which ordinary business people were being pursued by financial institutions and State institutions such as the Revenue. They are being driven to distraction and, in some cases, sadly to such a state of despair that they have ended their own lives and their problems are left for their families. This has affected my constituents. I read newspaper reports of Mr. Honohan's statement last weekend. He is in an interesting position and he was honest, open and frank in his comments. People may be aware of what he is talking about but it is not being picked up. I understand that if a person is entitled to a rebate from Revenue, but when there are question marks over individuals, there must be some way to withhold rebates. Withholding of tax by the Revenue comes into play for the self-employed if one's C2 is not in order. One has to wait a long time to get it back - until all one's accounts are in order. Surely it is not beyond the powers that be to withhold rebates to people who have question marks having over them.

White collar crime is as damaging, if not more damaging, to our society and indeed our economic security and survival as the more conventional crime. We must try to make it easier for the authorities, especially An Garda Síochána, to deal with it. They need to be equipped with the necessary tools because such crime is highly sophisticated. It must be treated as such. There is a moral and social obligation on us not to allow such reckless and criminal behaviour to be perceived as acceptable by future generations of business leaders. We must send a clear signal that the type of practices that have brought us close to ruination cannot be repeated. That requires all of us to consider our values but also it requires strict legal parameters around unscrupulous business activities, so that there can be no ambiguity; about right and wrong.

The previous Financial Regulator utterly failed to do his duty. The duties of his office were completely neglected. He went off into the sunset with his pay-off and pension. I am aware of contracts from my business experience. If one enters into a contract it is a two-way street. Both parties are obliged to fulfil the contract. If one does not, one does not get paid. That is what ordinary people are putting up with. All Oireachtas Members have received communications from people working for a company in this country who currently have problems getting paid. If one completes a contract one expects to get paid, but if one is in breach of it one does not expect to get paid. Ordinary people are bewildered as to how that can happen and how it did happen. It is just not good enough.

The message we need to send out at every possible opportunity is that Ireland is open for business in an honest, open and straightforward fashion. Enacting and implementing the legislation will go some way towards restoring business confidence in the county and will be another step in our recovery. Small and medium sized business is overwhelmed by the amount of regulation and red tape. Up to 99% of people in that sector do not have time to even contemplate white collar crime. That is my honest belief. I hope that once we emerge from the recession, we will have stronger systems, that are fit for purpose in the modern business world and will involve penalties that will make people think twice before they consider any crime of that nature.

In the US, it took four months to investigate Madoff and the collapse of his €85 billion Ponzi scheme, a probe that involved 140 interviews and trawling through 3.7 million emails and documents. Less than three months after the investigation ended, Madoff was in jail. This country's approach to investigating allegations of white-collar and financial crime has been pathetic. I do not say that lightly. I accept everyone is innocent until proven guilty but this spectacle is sending out all the wrong messages to the young, especially, but to all law-abiding people and to those abroad who observe us.

Mr. Paul Appleby's Office of the Director Enforcement, ODCE, is charged with cleaning up corporate Ireland but his office lacks any legal backup - it has no teeth. Most fraud investigations are by their nature, highly complex, and involve the examination of large amounts of documentation requiring input from forensic accountants and the obtaining of legal advice. They are also very expensive. We must ensure that the necessary resources are provided and that the law behind it is strong and that cases once made are watertight. Small business has to contend with NERA, the RSA, HSA and HIQA to mention but a few.

Specified serious and complex offences will attract a penalty of at least five years imprisonment, in such areas as banking and finance, company law, money laundering, fraud, corruption and cyber crime. Once it is enacted, the legislation can be used in current investigations in respect of which no prosecution has as yet begun. That is very important. Perhaps we could speed up the legislation to ensure it could be used in such cases. The complexity of the investigations have shown that it is not always possible to complete questioning and check facts in one period of 24 hour detention. It is welcome that detention times can be split up and offer a second or third bite of the cherry. Given that my time is up I thank the Acting Chairman for her forbearance. I hope the Minister will proceed with the Bill as soon as possible.

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