Dáil debates

Wednesday, 26 May 2010

Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill 2010: Second Stage (Resumed)

 

10:30 am

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)

The previous Deputy mentioned one of the most important points in respect of begging. It is not a question of trying to criminalise people who are in genuine need. Only three weeks ago in Donabate, Fr. Peter McVerry gave a presentation to Donabate Community Council in my constituency. He was discussing the issue of homelessness, especially in respect of younger people and the issue of begging came up. People asked about the best thing to do and whether one should one give money to a person begging. Interestingly, Fr. McVerry said the best thing one can do is to say "Hello" and talk and engage with that person. It is important to remember a person's dignity and desperation at such times. For the vast majority of people, it must be the case that they are at their lowest ebb to feel it necessary to go on the streets. I get off the train each morning at Pearse Street Station and I then walk past the same three people begging every morning as I walk up to the Dáil. When dealing with legislation such as this, which is important in controlling the intimidatory aspects of begging and the professional begging industry, we should not forget the genuine people who have, through no fault of their own, fallen on hard times. It is important to remember that those who are on the streets are people like all of us. They have families and feelings and deserve a small bit of recognition from us as we walk past. We can say "hello", ask how they are and see if assistance can be given in other ways.

The Bill is sensible legislation. I have heard complaints in my constituency about begging outside shops and houses and on our main streets and about people feeling intimidated by it. It is important that the gardaí are given powers to deal with this. The legislation will prohibit begging within ten metres of an ATM, a dwelling or the entrance to a business premises. The gardaí will have the power to move people on from those locations if they consider the begging and the manner it is being done to be intimidating people. That does happen from time to time.

It did not surprise me to learn that the previous Act governing this activity is the Vagrancy (Ireland) Act 1847, enacted in probably one of the worst times in the history of the country during the great famine. It was probably introduced by the powers that be to sweep the problems of the country under the carpet and get starving people off the streets. Thankfully, we are not in that position, or anything close to it, today. I was not surprised that, in the case of Dillon v DPP, the 1847 Act was judged unconstitutional. This presented the Government with the need to bring forward the Bill.

The Bill takes a commonsense approach. It brings balance between those who are genuinely needy and those who are not. There are organised gangs of beggars, because begging can be a lucrative industry. Children are sent by their fathers and mothers to beg in our cities and throughout the country. This must be dealt with, and I know this matter falls within the remit of social services. Children should not be made to sit on the street in all kinds of weather and collect money, sometimes to feed their parents' habits or to raise money for them. I would like to see this problem addressed. I hope it is within the powers of the Bill to allow the gardaí more leeway in dealing with this issue.

The Bill does not criminalise any individual. Penalties under the Bill are capped at a fine of €300 for someone who refuses to move on if requested by a member of the Garda. The fine for a person who refuses to give a name or address or gives false information to the gardaí is capped at €200. We are dealing with a sad reality of life that goes back to the beginning of time. That is, that people sometimes feel it necessary, because of the situation in which they find themselves, to seek assistance from others.

Although State and voluntary agencies do magnificent work throughout the country and we have made massive strides in the area of homelessness, this issue needs to be addressed constantly. People who are living on the streets must be given proper information about their entitlements and where they can seek assistance. I refer to Father Peter McVerry, who is an expert in this field and who has established hostels for young homeless people. Hostels are not the best place for young adults aged between 16 and 18, particularly as they can be a gateway to drug misuse and alcohol abuse. Some of the centres are in such bad shape that it would be difficult to send young people to them, where they could be led down a road they would not otherwise have taken.

While talking about the Bill and what it might do, we cannot forget our responsibility to look at the causes of this problem and to provide early intervention, ideally at a family level and in the family unit. It is a symptom of modern society in the last ten or 15 years that the family unit has broken down somewhat. Parental guidance and time spent with children seem to have lost their importance. I know it is difficult to gauge how successful early intervention will be but the fewer homeless people who are begging on the streets the better. Broader society needs to be educated about the people who are on the streets. No one makes a conscious choice to be in that situation. It is up to us, as Government and Opposition legislators together, to make sure this is always at the top of the agenda. This is a battle we will never win, but child poverty and homelessness must remain a priority for all of us.

The Bill takes a sensible approach and the penalties are clearly outlined. There is a feeling among the public that there are criminal elements behind some begging rings. This is true. Deputy Kenneally referred to sections of our community who are receiving State assistance or seeking refuge in the country. Someone who is being supported by the State and is receiving State benefit and housing has no need to beg. Is it possible that such a person is handing the proceeds of begging to someone above them? That area must be criminalised. It is akin to slavery, and I do not use that term lightly. People are running gangs of children and young men women who are made to sit out for 12 or 14 hours a day and hand up what they get to someone who controls them.

I welcome the Bill. It represents a sensible approach and I am glad to hear there is broad support for it.

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