Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)

Some of these people are in such circumstances that they might welcome a month in the prison.

I apologise to the Minister for missing his opening remarks. I was surprised by the speed with which the amendments to the previous Bill were dispatched. The Minister seems to want to indicate that he does not intend imprisonment to be the normal consequence of the implementation of this Bill. I agree with that intention. I do not question the Minister's bona fides, if that is what he is saying. Like me, he knows that what he intends is of little enough significance. It is what is written in the law that matters. That is how the court is going to consider it. It will not matter that the Minister of the day did not intend it to be used in such a manner. I am not sure what steps the Minister will take to ensure this legislation is implemented as he hopes.

I would like to ask the Minister about the definition of the kind of people who may find themselves in breach of this new legislation. Section 2(b) states that a person who, while begging in any place, "obstructs the passage of persons or vehicles, is guilty of an offence and is liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €400 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or both". I wonder whether it is possible to engage in begging without obstructing someone. I was obstructed three times on Grafton Street today by representatives of worthy organisations who wanted me to sign up to support meritorious charities of one kind or another. I do not know how it is possible to be stopped on the sidewalk, and to be asked to contribute alms to somebody who is begging, without that technically constituting an obstruction.

It does not matter whether one operates on the basis of the definition in section 2 of the Bill, or on the basis of the powers given to the Garda in terms of designated areas. Both of them are arbitrary and capable of arbitrary implementation. They are capable of being invoked at the caprice of the garda concerned. I find it difficult to reconcile that with the Minister's hope that this will not lead to a number of additional people being incarcerated in Mountjoy. I suspect the Minister is acutely aware of why that is desirable. It is not for any great reason of compassion or humanity. I am not denying that he has either of those impulses. It is because of the acute and serious overcrowding in our prisons. I refer to the sheer pressure on our prisons as they try to cope with the number of people sent to them from the courts. We know from the most recent remarks of the retiring governor of Mountjoy Prison that the prison is horrifically overcrowded. The retiring Governor of the women's prison, Dóchas, specifically instanced overcrowding as the cause of her early retirement.

The last thing we need is for people on the streets, there for the complex reasons we have discussed, ending up being prosecuted and incarcerated. I look forward to hearing the Minister's reconciliation of his aspirations in this regard with what is contained in the Bill. The opportunity will come to tease this out further on Committee Stage. The distinction between begging, causing a public nuisance or threatening someone can be difficult.

I accept the recent practice of the immigrant community, particularly but not exclusively by members of the Roma-Gypsy community, of turning up at cars waiting at traffic lights to beg or clean windows can be a traffic hazard. I accept the presence of some person, who can be intentionally intimidating or otherwise, in the immediate vicinity of an ATM can be a problem for some people and necessitates some control. I accept the Garda Síochána carefully implements sensitive measures such as those contained in the Bill.

Again, though, it will depend on circumstances like the wide variations seen when legislation on drinking in public places was introduced. Occasionally in this country we get a warm weekend like we just had and, accordingly, many people like to drink a pint outside of the pub in the open air on the footpath. One garda may simply note such an occasion and move on if there is no reason for him to do otherwise; another may be punctilious enough to cause the pathway to be cleared. Equally with this legislation, a great deal of arbitrary power is being left with the Garda Síochána to deal with begging.

In Strumpet City the character Rashers Tierney got around anti-begging laws by offering a trinket in return for a few bob. Similarly, this Bill's provisions do not apply to cases where some trinket is offered. I would have thought some of our more enterprising beggars will latch on to the Rashers Tierney clause fairly quickly. What is the Minister's view on this?

What is the Minister's response to the comments made by Barnardos on the child-adult issue to this legislation? It has pointed out the Bill's provisions will apply to a person of any age, including a child, who may be arrested without warrant. It claims the possibility of a child being detained under this legislation is in contravention of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The charity stated:

Legislation alone will not address the problem of begging which stems for the societal failure to care for and protect vulnerable people including children. Barnardos recommends adequate resources be available for homeless services and a full commitment given to implement The Way Home: A Strategy to Address Adult Homelessness in Ireland 2008-2013. It is unacceptable that the HSE introduced a funding freeze on services dealing with homelessness in July 2008. This resulted in people, including children, being turned away from emergency accommodation. Given the worsening economic climate and rising unemployment, the demand for such services is likely to increase and the removal of vital services will exacerbate the problems facing vulnerable people.

Children and young people who are forced to beg are very vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. The lack of a 24 hour nationwide social work service and the closure of two residential centres which catered for homeless boys and girls aged 12-18 places these children and young people in further danger.

This is a problem the Minister will have to address, as indeed are some of the comments in the observation paper from the Irish Human Rights Commission. It noted begging is frequently a direct result of being homeless and, in such circumstances, failing to provide an address should not be penalised. It recommended a defence of reasonable excuse be included in the Bill to cover such situations. As we well know in this House, homelessness is a complex phenomenon. Where there is no defence of reasonable excuse, the person is indeed vulnerable.

This is a minor single-issue Bill of which I do not want to make a meal. There is a necessity for a reasonable control of the phenomenon of begging. However, certain white collar persons in positions of responsibility have brought our economy to the edge of ruin for which ordinary people are paying the price. The latter demand some action be taken against those responsible for plunging our country into the depths of economic despair, yet, there is no evidence the former's lifestyles have altered in the slightest. They still give us the two fingers in how they disport themselves. None of them has had their collar felt by the Garda Síochána or had any prosecutions taken against them. They have done more damage to this society than the entire beggar community could ever do. It seems the white collar individuals can do so with impunity.

Most ordinary taxpayers are immensely resentful of the hardships imposed on them by the Government when no action will likely be taken against those who have brought us to the stage at which we are, yet, this House can find time to bring in specific legislation to control beggars. If the only damage done to this country was that done by beggars, then we would be well able to afford to deal with it. It is far more serious than that. This House cannot find time to change the ineffectual legislation that means it will take forever to mount a prosecution against those white-collar persons, if ever there will be any, but it can to deal with begging.

The Labour Party will not oppose the legislation in principle. However, there are several matters which we must tease through with the Minister on Committee Stage. I would be pleased if, in his reply, the Minister would seek to address the belief in his Department that this is a worsening phenomenon, because statistics showed a fall-off in prosecutions before the Act was struck down by the High Court. On Committee Stage we will seek to advance three or four important amendments but, other than that, we will not oppose the legislation in principle on Second Stage.

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