Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)

One must still solve the problem. However, we would propose a clear out of the boards of management. They would not be run by the Department of Finance, as the Minister, Deputy Ryan, attempted to suggest, in the way that Irish Life was in its hey day as a successful commercial bank, 98% of which was State owned. There was no interference from Merrion Street in the way that financial house operated. We would tell the new staff and management there were flat rate salaries and no bonuses, and when they bring it back to the market in seven to ten years time, 5% or 10% of the realised value will be their shared bonus pool. We would turn to the shareholders and say we are sorry they lost their shirts. Those of us who saw the "Six-one" news today saw the tragedy that has become the reality for so many of them. We would tell those people, many of whom are elderly, they have been taken to the cleaners. They invested for the dividend as much as for the value of the shares. We would tell them the Government does not want to make a killing from the nationalisation and refloatation and that when the bank's value can be maximised and it is refloated, once the State and the taxpayer have realised what they put into it, the balance will stay in a pot, and 30%, 40%, 50% or whatever it is will be divvied out to the existing shareholders. We can say to the granny or grandfather whom we saw on TV that they might not see the money but their children and grandchildren will get it.

That practical, operational system would work within the existing legal framework and no legal challenge could interfere with the process. As Deputy Flynn said, we have nationalised Anglo Irish Bank and there has been no change. The sky has not fallen in. It has to do its business. The real problem is that Anglo Irish Bank was not a high street bank but predominantly a property bank and additionally a small business loan bank. It did not deal with pubs in Kildare or businesses in County Mayo. Essentially, it was AIB and Bank of Ireland that dealt with them, and north of the Twenty-six Counties, perhaps Ulster Bank. They are the banks that are not lending, and businesses are suffering because those banks traditionally evened out the cycle of cashflow and all the other problems that are common to businesses. We have to get the banks working again, and the best people to do that are the vast majority of the staff, who were not on the crazy roundabout of bonuses for property gambling. Bank of Ireland and AIB reluctantly followed Anglo Irish down the path, Bank of Ireland most reluctantly of all, because of what happened to the share value of Anglo Irish. Anybody in the banking industry would tell us that.

The Labour Party's point is that we need a practical methodology to fix the problems soon. The Government has been at this since last September. Deputies know from what they hear from their families, constituents and others that the banks are not lending. To use parliamentary language about it, they have been telling us "untruths". We heard that from Mark Fielding on the radio today. A bi-monthly survey showed the refusal rate for working capital of £15,000 to £20,000 for ordinary corner shops and small businesses has increased from 48% to 58%. Two years ago, the rate was about 28%. Mark Fielding is not a card-carrying member of the Labour Party or a rabid socialist who wants to control the commanding heights of the Irish economy. We are quoting facts from the marketplace.

NAMA will not work because we do not yet have a single iota of detail on it. We heard that down in Treasury Buildings there is a group of people who have expertise in evaluating very complex loan books. Deputy Flynn, perhaps more than anybody in this House, knows just how complex such loan books are compared with, for example, my mortgage, my personal account and my second account. They are from a different planet or a different world and nobody except the people in the area can evaluate them. For that reason, the solution is to take temporary ownership of the banks, sort out the bad debts, refloat the banks, give money back to those who deserve it and the shareholders who own it, and get the country moving again. It is not moving at present.

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