Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 27 November 2025
Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Supplementary)
2:00 am
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Eoin Ó Broin.
I congratulate my party colleague the Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins, and his wife Inga on the birth of their son. The child came early, so we wish them well.
I advise members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in our public meetings.
Today the select committee is required to consider the Supplementary Estimate in respect of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage – Vote 34. I welcome the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, James Browne, and his officials to the meeting. We appreciate the comprehensive briefing material that was provided by the Department ahead of today's meeting. It has been circulated among members.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the House as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Today’s meeting is about the Supplementary Estimate. In two weeks' time, on Tuesday, 9 December, we will have a meeting with the Minister on the housing plan, as requested by members. Since there will be a full meeting on the plan, we might try to confine our questions today to the Supplementary Estimate, which is what today’s meeting is about. The joint committee will have a session on the Planning and Development Act following this meeting.
I have to attend Questions on Policy or Legislation in the Dáil today, so Deputy Séamus McGrath will take the Chair for the beginning of the meeting. I invite the Minister to make his opening comments on the Supplementary Estimate.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to discuss with the select committee my Department’s Supplementary Estimate for 2025. I am joined this afternoon by the following officials from my Department: Mr. David Kelly, assistant secretary, homelessness, rental and social inclusion division; Ms Marguerite Ryan, assistant secretary, corporate and business support division; Mr. Daniel Sinnott, finance officer; and Ms Emer Dalton, principal officer, social housing delivery division.
I very much appreciate that this committee has convened at short notice to consider this Supplementary Estimate. I will accordingly keep my opening remarks brief and focused on the matters at hand.
The Supplementary Estimate to be discussed today builds on the significant allocation provided to my Department in budget 2025 and the additional €1.4 billion in capital funding approved in the course of the year. This represents a very substantial element of overall Government expenditure in 2025 and is instrumental in delivering key objectives across all areas under the remit of my Department.
The Supplementary Estimate before the committee today covers substantive additional funding of €299 million for current expenditure. It also provides for the reallocation of €174 million within my Department's existing capital allocation through a technical Supplementary Estimate.
As committee members will be aware, this process does not result in a net increase in funds, but rather it will allow the movement of funds to the appropriate subheads to match the recoupment of claims anticipated across various social and affordable housing schemes. It will also facilitate the ongoing contribution to local authorities’ stranded costs, which arise in the context of ongoing transformation of the water sector. I would like to make very clear that this redistribution of funding will have no net effect on the total amount of capital allocated to the housing programme.
In relation to the substantive Supplementary Estimate, a total of €299 million is being provided for additional current expenditure, of which €271 million is to be provided for various areas across the housing programme. Of this, €84 million is being provided for the social housing current expenditure programme. The overall costs of this programme are driven by the addition of new units, increases in new unit costs and increased rent review costs for existing units.
A figure of €157.2 million is being provided for accommodation for homeless to address the 2025 cost of emergency accommodation and the provision of homeless services. The remaining allocation to housing is being provided for the housing assistance payment scheme, the residential accommodation scheme, the capital loans and subsidy scheme, the Residential Tenancies Board and to cover certain legal expenses that arose in 2025.
Outside of the housing programme, the main funding to be provided is €25 million to cover exceptional local authority costs arising from the severe effects of Storm Éowyn. The remaining €3.3 million in funding is being provided to the local government programme to fund agreed payments to retained firefighters, to Waterways Ireland to deal with increased maintenance costs on canals and to the National Parks and Wildlife Service to continue delivery of actions on the fourth national biodiversity action plan.
In relation to the technical Supplementary Estimates, in addition to the request for substantive changes, this supplementary will also provide for the reallocation of funding of €174 million within the Department’s allocation. This includes €55 million of non-housing funds not expected to be drawn down this year in order to cover local authority stranded costs. It will also allow for the movement of €119 million within capital subheads in the housing programme to accommodate variances in the timing of payments and support continued delivery of social and affordable housing units.
In this context I wish to mention briefly Ireland’s new national housing plan, Delivering Homes, Building Communities,which was published on 13 November. The plan is built on two pillars, namely, activating supply and supporting people. Pillar 1 focuses on activating the supply of 300,000 homes. This will be achieved through activating more land, providing more housing-related infrastructure, securing more development finance for home building, addressing viability challenges, particularly those seen in apartment delivery, increasing the adoption of modern methods of construction, increasing the skills in the residential construction sector, and working toward ending dereliction and vacancy.
Pillar 2 details how Government will support people. It sets out a series of key actions that work towards ending homelessness, supporting affordability and addressing the housing needs of people as they progress through life. In partnership with local authorities, the Land Development Agency, LDA, and approved housing bodies, AHBs, the plan will address the needs of the most vulnerable in our communities, make buying and renting homes more affordable, and support the development of villages, towns and cities across the country.
I would note that the housing elements of the Supplementary Estimate are very much in line with the Delivering Homes, Building Communities plan, focusing as they do on the delivery of social and affordable units, the reuse of vacant and derelict homes, and the support of households that are homeless or at risk of homelessness. I have kept my remarks as brief as possible. I will, of course, be happy to deal with matters that members wish to raise and to revert to the committee if I do not have the detail with me today. I look forward to discussing the plan in the coming weeks with the committee.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for being here. First, I would like to focus on underspends. There was an €1.3 million underspend in housing for older people and those with disabilities. How did this happen when we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people when it comes to housing provision?
Second, the Minister announced a war on dereliction. These Estimates provide no additional funding for tackling dereliction. Instead, there is €50 million from the urban renewal and regeneration fund that was not spent. Can the Minister account for this underspend?
The third question in this series is about how 13% of the budget for this year for cost rental delivery was not met. This was because AHBs do not believe that the current cost rental construction model is feasible or appropriate. What is being done to increase cost rental delivery? The Minister might take those three questions.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his questions. In relation to older people, a lot of these issues relate simply to timing issues. The subhead under older people provides capital and current funding for the implementation of pilot projects, including staffing supports, for example, for the housing of people with disabilities and older people. The provision of €1.3 million was intended to support the Ava pilot project to reconfigure 20 homes in two separate dwellings each. However, the pilot did not progress as planned in 2025 due to delivery challenges, including alignment with required energy upgrades. I assure the Deputies that funding will be drawn down and used for its intended purpose. It is in the main a timing issue.
The URDF has been a very successful project in terms of calls 1, 2 and 3, and there will be further calls in relation to it and assuring that the maximum is drawn down. Again, it is simply that what we have are timing issues in terms of drawdown. It is not a question of the funding not being allocated, if you like, but this funds a large number of projects right across the country through our local authorities. Some projects will move faster, and some will move slower. It is simply a timing issue in terms of that funding being drawn down but, again, that funding is allocated and will be used.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister might comment on the 13% of the budget for delivery of cost rental that was not met.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Cost rental has been a huge success. It is an area where we are increasing in the delivery but, again, these are very large projects. These are multi-annual projects. We always ensure that we have the sufficient funding in place, but even a delay in drawdown in terms of a single project can at times result in a slight underspend. Again, however, it is simply a timing issue and these funds are needed.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does someone need to get a pocket watch, in that case? What AHBs are telling us is that they do not feel that they can build cost rental under the current model. To confirm, when all these underspends are spent in 2026, as the Minister is suggesting, will that be on top of the budget that was announced for 2026? Therefore, the money that was not spent this year will be on top of the budget that was allocated for 2026. Is that right?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. As I said, the underspend was simply a timing issue. No delivery is lost this year. That is what is absolutely crucial to get across. We are increasing the delivery of cost rental year on year. That funding will be drawn down, and there is sufficient funding for 2026 and for our plans in 2026 to increase cost rental even further.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to confirm that when the money that was not spent this year is spent next year, it is on top of what was allocated for next year. Is that right? Does the Minister understand what I am saying?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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No, the Deputy might clarify it for me.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will put it this way. There was €1.3 million that was not spent on housing for older people and people with disabilities. The Minister is saying that is a timing issue. When that is spent next year, that is on top of the funding he has already allocated for older people and people with disabilities for 2026.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will have our funding for what we need for next year, and the funding for these projects as drawn down will be on top of that.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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In Cork, there were 27 cost-rental units delivered last year. The Minister is saying it is a tremendous success. Twenty-seven units is tiny. It is a tiny fraction of what is required.
Going to the next set of questions, the Local Government Fund was slashed during the austerity budgets. In the budget of 2009, before Phil Hogan was the Minister, he announced €1.6 billion for the Local Government Fund. Last month, the Minister announced €670 million for next year. The cost of running local authorities has risen considerably since then but the Supplementary Estimate is only to deal with the leftover costs from transfers of services to Uisce Éireann. When can local authorities expect funding to return to pre-austerity levels?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We fund local authorities for various purposes as necessary and where we want them to implement particular Government projects but also to help them with their funding. It is incumbent on local authorities to be able to manage their own budgets and to ensure they are raising sufficient funds as well for their own programmes within their own local authorities.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister's predecessor-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a section of the Department, in a sense, that we fund everything for local authorities.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sixteen years ago, there was nearly €1 billion - over €900 million - more being given to local authorities than there is now. How can the Minister stand over that figure?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I think what the Deputy is talking about is direct funding to local authorities-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----but we are directly funding - as in, here is the funding for you - projects within local authorities as well. If you look at the URDF, for example, that is extraordinary funding coming from the Government to support local authorities as well through project management. The Deputy is taking one-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Local authorities have to do housing-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to explain to the Deputy. He is trying to take just one part of the funding that is given to local authorities. We fund local authorities on a much broader scale and in a much more managed way-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will give the Minister one example of where we disagree. The voids programme is currently closed, which is absolutely unbelievable at a time when he have thousands of boarded-up houses or voids, as they are called. There is no additional funding to reopen them this side of Christmas, meaning that where any council currently has empty properties, they will all be left idle, empty and boarded-up until the new year. Has the Minister sought a costing for keeping this system open all year round? This is a solution that we have been offering for years. To be honest, there are backbenchers in the Minister's own Government telling me they support keeping the voids programme open all year long. Will the Minister provide the funding to do that?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a solution because what the Deputy is asking me to do is simply write a blank cheque for local authorities to spend what they want.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is very unfair on local authorities.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is up to local authorities to manage their stock. What we are doing at the moment is giving them some funds to help bail them out until they can get to a situation where they need to be, which is managing their own stock. It is not for the Department of housing and local government to subsidise local authorities in running their stock. That is what we are doing and we are helping them.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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On that, I am conscious of my time-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have a fundamental difference here on how we approach this. Asking the central taxpayer to pay for everything is not the solution.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, says there is, on average, a €20,000 shortfall between what the Government provides and what local authorities spend to repair or turn around voids or boarded-up council houses owned by the State. A lot of local authorities cannot afford that additional funding.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is their duty to ensure they have that funding and maintain their stock. Local authorities letting stock go into disrepair and then expecting central government to bail them out is not the solution. It is also not the policy position. I appreciate that is what the Deputy wants to happen but there comes a point where local authorities actually diminish their own importance and role if they simply want central government and the taxpayer to cover everything. They have to have their own independence and be able to manage their own stock. That is their duty.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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My point is the Government should be providing the central funding to local authorities to do that, but it is not. I believe the Minister is abdicating his responsibility as Minister for housing and local government.
I want to go back to a point I made earlier in relation to cost rental. Does that underspend mean the targets will not be met?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have a new housing plan. We have our targets within that housing plan for 300,000 homes and one of those is-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but I am conscious of time going over.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----15,000 starter homes per year.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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That plan only came out three weeks ago.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There was a target set for this year. Will that target be met?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have our targets, under the housing plan, of 15,000 affordable units per year on average. That is what we are working towards. The essential part there is that we have that dynamic ability to move in regard to what is needed for people to maximise the delivery of the affordable resolution they need.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Chair, it is a simple question. It is a yes-no question.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Whether that is cost rental or affordable, that is what we are doing and we are increasing cost rental.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will the targets be met? That is all I am looking for, Chair.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I have answered the Deputy's question. We have a new housing plan and that is what we are working on.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is a yes-no question. Will the targets be met?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have a new housing plan and that is what we are working on.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have asked the question three times now.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for being here. There are a couple of areas I wish to ask the Minister about. The first one relates to the issue of the housing assistance payment, HAP, and the increase in supplementary expenditure in relation to it. Could the Minister outline what the reasons are for the additional €11 million expected to be required and spent this year on HAP?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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HAP is an essential part of what we do at the moment. I want to get to a situation where people are in social homes rather than relying on HAP but it is necessary at the moment. HAP is a demand-led scheme where we can get people in. There are always going to be variances on HAP delivery. It is something where we do our best to predict what the demand is going to be in any one particular year but it is what is needed.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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In regard to the specific information the Minister has given in the Estimates, it says that the cost of the average monthly landlord payment is increasing. I would assume that means that rents are essentially increasing and it is the increase in rents that is driving that increase in the amount of HAP tenancies, rather than an increase in the number of recipients.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have our set-out amount if you like, which varies across the country, as to how much HAP we will pay but we are also conscious of trying to get people out of homelessness. We use homeless HAP, which has a higher allocation and flexibility with local authorities, as well. The reality is that we know rents are going up and that is why we are taking measures elsewhere to try to increase supply and get rents down.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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The Minister mentioned social housing. HAP is clearly providing homes to people on that basis but we need to be moving away from a reliance on HAP. We are now in a position where there is almost €500 million a year going to that. That is going to landlords; it is not invested in new social housing. Does the Minister think we need to put more effort into ensuring that the supply of social housing is higher and end this overreliance on HAP?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy; we do not want to be relying on HAP. What we want is people in social homes, whether delivered by local authorities, affordable housing bodies or whatever the case may be. The solution to driving down HAP is increasing the delivery of social homes across the country, so I agree with the Deputy on that. That is what we are trying to do - drive up the delivery of social homes in particular.
The ideal scenario and what I am really pushing hard on is to get local authorities to own build. Where that is not possible, there is a timing issue or they are building up capacity, we have forward-funded local authorities and affordable housing bodies to deliver social homes. The last option is turnkeys, which we are trying to move away from as much as possible.
HAP is costly and it is not adding to the stock. I agree with the Deputy on that. I want to move away from HAP.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. He mentioned the issue of new builds for local authorities. It was good to see in the housing plan the desire to move to new-build units within local authorities that were leading on new building but it was disappointing not to see any reflection of that in the Supplementary Estimates. Local authorities do not currently have the funding, in my view and from what they are telling me, to really lead on increasing and ramping up the direct build by local authorities.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There are a couple of things I have tried. I have a lot of faith in local government.
One of the first things I did in my first few months was to change the parameters around local authorities so that they can now deliver social homes up to the value of €200 million under a single-stage process rather than a four-stage process and trust local authorities and their professionals within local authorities to be able to drive social homes. We also came out with the design manual to make it simpler and more straightforward for local authorities as to what they need to build.
I am trying to find every way I can to facilitate local authorities to deliver social homes. Ultimately, that is how we will help to resolve homelessness crisis and move people away from HAP. Each year, a significant number of people move from HAP into social homes. We have seen a reduction in the number of people in HAP by almost 10,000 over recent years. We want to help local authorities to deliver those social homes. There are different records or rates out there. Some local authorities are doing well in exceeding prior targets on social home delivery through forward funding or turnkeys. I want local authorities to develop their own capacity to deliver their own homes because that protects local authorities in the future through potential economic shocks. They must have their own capacity and not have that reliance on private developers buying and developing outside. Having that resilience in that system is crucial in the context of the immediate necessity to deliver more social homes.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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We have seen the figures from the Residential Tenancies Board on the increase in the number of notices to quit issued. It relates directly to the Estimates. The allocation is completely inadequate in terms of the tenant in situ scheme, which enables councils to purchase homes where tenants are in place and keep in people in their homes, and the cost rental tenant in situ scheme. Will the Minister comment on this issue? We are clearly in the midst of an unprecedented tsunami of evictions with those numbers. Almost 15,000 notices to quit were issued in the first nine months of this year. What does the Minister say to those families and individuals who are receiving notices to quit, and have few options of where to go, at a time of rents of €2,000 or €3,000? In my constituency, I was dealing with a family this week who have been given a notice to quit by their landlord. It is a family with adult children. They have nowhere to go. Where are they to go to? I am asking the Minister that genuinely. Where are these thousands of people going to go right now except into hidden homelessness or homelessness?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The number one solution to all these issues is the increased supply. That is why I am making decisions to bring certainty into the housing delivery market. Crucially, the decisions I have made are also about protecting tenants and bringing security of tenure into this State for the first time. There is an element of change happening in the number of small landlords and how they are leaving the market. We know from 2023 research that approximately 27% of small landlords said they intended to exit the market in the next five years, one way or the other. What I want from tenants - this is why I am changing the law - is to have security of tenure. We want to increase supply for people to make it harder for notices to quit to be served on tenants and to give them security of tenure and a long-term place to rent. However, we have to increase supply as well. These measures I am proposing do both. They strengthen the rights of tenants and give them greater security, but also give certainty to the market. We have to remember where we are coming from. We had temporary rent pressure zones. It was not clear when one area might come into a rent pressure zone or come back out of it. It did not cover the entirety of the country. We have moved now to a permanent situation in the rental market that strengthens tenants' rights and brings certainty to the market. This will allow us to get more investors into the markets and to have more properties, which in turn will drive down rental prices. We know that more supply drives down rental prices. When I think about renters, I do not just think about those who are renting; I also think about those who are at home and cannot get anywhere to rent even though they need somewhere to rent. The only way we are going to address that is by increasing supply.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I hear all the Minister has said, but it does not get away from the fact that right now there is a human tsunami of evictions going on. The Minister can shake his head, but that is what is happening right now.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am shaking my head at the Deputy's hyperbole.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I do not believe he does not care. I am so frustrated that measures being introduced in March by the Department and the Government are causing and contributing to this instability and the evictions. There is no reason that the Government could not have implemented in the run-up to these changes a ban on evictions into homeless, which would mean that no one is going to be evicted into homelessness as a result of these changes. Surely that is something that could have been done. They have done it in Belgium. We could do that at a minimum. I do not believe that the Minister is throwing his hands up and accepting this as the human cost of these changes and policies. Surely we cannot accept that.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is those very renters who are driving me to make these decisions. I want to ensure that renters are protected, that we have security of tenure and that we can get more supply. It is those renters who motivate me every day to drive supply in order that they can have somewhere to rent, live or own and can have options. The only way we can do that is by driving supply. We know that an eviction ban will only depress supply. It might give a short-term protection to existing renters, but it does nothing for them in the long run or even in the medium term. It does absolutely nothing; quite the opposite.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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In the short term, they are going into homelessness.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is counterproductive to those renters who need somewhere to rent and cannot find anywhere.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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In the long term, they are going into homelessness.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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By increasing supply, we will reduce homelessness, work towards ending homelessness-----
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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You are not. It is increasing.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----and provide places for people. We do not have enough supply for the fastest growing population in Europe. We have to accelerate the delivery of homes. We are not simply dealing with a stagnant situation here. We have a massively increased population, and we have to increase our supply. Increasing supply will provide homes for people at all the different tenures.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Does the Minister not accept that-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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An eviction ban sounds tempting, but it does not address the core issues.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I hear what the Minister is saying. Yes, we have to increase supply. I do not agree with the way he is going about it, but that is our difference. If we look at the humanitarian situation, we will see that there is instability as a result of Government policies. Clearly there are mass evictions going on, as I have described. Surely the Minister sees that there is a need for him to do something more right now to intervene, rather than just saying, "it is supply; it will work out at some point".
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are coming from a position of instability and a lack of certainty. We had temporary measures over parts of the country. We are now moving to a permanent rental situation where renters will have security of tenure and investors will have certainty on what the rules are. It is those measures that will help renters. We increased the funding for the RTB by 70% in order to ensure it has the ammunition it needs to protect renters throughout the country. It is those renters who need social housing, affordable housing and private places to rent who motivate me every day.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
I will go next, and Deputy Sheehan will follow. I thank the Minister very much. To clarify, the €299 million current expenditure element of the Supplementary Estimate is additional funding, and the capital expenditure element is a reallocation of €174 million. Is that correct?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it relates to in-year additional expenses because it is demand-led. At the time of the budget, it is always acknowledged that whatever funding might be necessary will be made available.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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That €84 million is needed because of the increase in the cost of maintaining social houses across the country as a result of an increase in supply.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. There is a certain cost with the delivery of social housing.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
Deputy Hearne mentioned the Residential Tenancies Board and the additional funding that is one component of the additional funding.
Exactly what is that additional funding for? I know the Residential Tenancies Board has had increased resources and obviously its level of activity is very high. With the new rental changes coming in, it is dealing with many queries and issues in this regard. That additional funding is basically to resource the board better. Is that correct?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is. For me, it is essential that the RTB be appropriately resourced to ensure it can address situations in terms of providing information to tenants and landlords, address situations where there are challenges and collect data. ICT, for example, is going to be crucial. There are also the aspects of addressing disputes and ensuring appropriate registration. We have seen a much stronger approach from the CEO, Rosemary Steen, in recent times towards landlords in terms of ensuring they are registered and providing the appropriate services. This is what it is about. We have to ensure that all tenancies are, in fact, registered so tenants are protected. I expect an increase in requests for information and regulation as a result of the changes we are bringing across the country in March 2026. It is also necessary to ensure the RTB can continue with its work of research and enforcement, which is crucial.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
Perfect. It is good to see the additional funding going towards the RTB. To be fair to the board, I think it is improving its turnaround times in terms of dispute resolution and so on. That is very welcome and, hopefully, it continues into 2026.
Reference was made to legal costs, not related to the RTB but in general as part of the Supplementary Estimates. Do we have an idea of the figure for those legal costs? What does it relate to? Is it general legal costs?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It relates to a number of cases. We have, for example, Boal v. the Minister for housing. These cases are very difficult to predict. They can finish quite early or be protracted. There can also be significant costs around discovery, for example. I think the Boal case arises out of defective concrete blocks. Donegal County Council is involved in a legal case, too, in terms of a pathfinder around defective concrete blocks.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The additional funding for legal expenses is €2.47 million.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I believe we will come very close to the full amount being drawn down. We are very near there now. Obviously, we have allocated funding to local authorities, so it is up to them to ensure their allocation is drawn down. We are working with local authorities to ensure this is the case.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There were. I will get that figure in a minute. I am just trying to recall the overall amount. I think it is €375 million at the moment. We predict there will be about 800 potential acquisitions over the year, but we are waiting for the local authorities to come in with their final numbers. One of the things that did impact it this year, however, was the substantial cost from local authorities. This money is to purchase houses to prevent people from going into homelessness, but there seemed to be an awful lot of legacy costs around refurbishment that local authorities had not been sending up the bills for. They have been sending up the bills now under this year's funding. As far as I am concerned, that was never the intention of this funding and going forward it will not be the case.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Well, maybe some essential works, but not substantial works. In some cases, these have amounted to up to €60,000. These are homes people are living in at the moment. There is an opportunity cost there. If funding is being spent on refurbishment rather than purchase, it means homes that perhaps need to be purchased are not being purchased as a result.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
Okay. The amount of money involved is quite substantial in some cases.
Turning to the capital element, I know this is a reallocation, which makes sense in ensuring we have the full drawdown of the capital allocation overall. Some €55 million is non-housing related. What exactly is this coming from?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is going into the Local Government Fund and it comes from a number of different headings and other services. For example, €15 million is coming from the URDF and there are a number of other smaller savings, for example, from the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and Waterways Ireland. It is a timing issue, but funding is needed for the Local Government Fund for what are known as stranded assets. Effectively, while water services have transferred to Uisce Éireann, there are some legacy costs for local authorities and the agreement is in place, and rightly so, that they will not have an ongoing cost as a result of the transfer of assets to Uisce Éireann.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
In terms of housing schemes, approvals and so on, it is obviously a critical issue. We would hear some criticism about schemes not getting approval and concerns around funding and so on. Will the Minister confirm that schemes ready to go to the next stage, and various stages, are not being delayed due to funding constraints and are progressing?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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They are progressing. We will try to give as much scope as possible as well in terms of projects being funded in the coming years. We are trying to ensure we have that pipeline. It is absolutely essential. All applications, though, have to go through normal diligence, so while there are no constraints now in terms of funding, projects have to go through appropriate assessment to ensure properties are correct in terms of the standards required, they are in the right locations and the appropriate governance is in place. This is substantial State funding and we have to ensure all the projects meet the necessary requirements.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for coming in with his officials. In relation to the extra approximately €173 million being reallocated, does this include the AHB sector or does it mainly relate to Part V?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy wants to know where the €173 million is coming from.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes, and where exactly it is going. From what I have deduced from looking into it, with more private sector schemes coming on board this year, I assume more and more of this money is going to go on Part V.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to get the Deputy the exact detail on this amount. It is going into local authority housing. It is going into the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency, the secure tenancy affordable rental, STAR, investment scheme, the croí cónaithe cities scheme and vacancy supports.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I want to ask the Minister an additional question in relation to the tenant in situ scheme. In my city of Limerick, we have reached 1,000 applications submitted since the commencement of the scheme in March 2023.
A lot of those applications are paused at the moment, particularly in relation to the issue with refurbishments. Based on what the Minister was saying, I understand this whole figure of €60,000 for refurbishments and while I agree with him about that being unacceptably high, with this reallocation, is there any way some additional funding could have been moved into tenant in situ, even to create a small fund for refurbishments? Local authorities have huge numbers coming into their homeless action teams. In Limerick alone, millions of euro are being spent every year on hotels and we are getting absolutely nothing in return for that. The local authority is spending about €10 million at the moment. At least, if the local authority could buy a house or acquire a unit, they would then acquire an asset.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I will give him the figures for Limerick so far this year. Limerick City and County Council was assigned €15 million for 2025. So far, it has recouped €7 million. There have been 11 units acquired to date. There are a lot of units going through the processes. I am hopeful and confident that Limerick will draw down all of its €15 million in this regard. We have to see over the next few weeks how things play out. It is quite a substantial amount - €7 million for 11 units. I expect the difference has gone into refurbishment.
We wrote to Limerick City and County Council in the summer to say it could use 30% of that allocation to get things moving already for next year. It was the equivalent of approximately €4.5 million. That is because there is a time lag for conveyancing. If you start to engage into a process today, the reality is it will probably be six months before you are drawing it down. The idea with that is to ensure local authorities would be able to draw down all of their funding for next year so it is not a case they cannot start even engaging with people until 1 January. If so, they would be under serious pressure to draw down all of their necessary funding.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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If I am gathering this correctly, the Minister said 11 units were acquired.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There were 11 units acquired for €7,117,136.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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That is €636,000 or something like that per unit. That seems like an absurd amount.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it does. While I do not have it here, I can get the Deputy the detail. I am guessing a substantial amount of that €7 million went towards refurbishment. That may have been some legacy refurbishment as well but I do not know if that is the case in Limerick. I will certainly get the Deputy that information-----
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Is there scope to do something very limited with refurbishment? Is there scope there for the Department to do something that would cover small-scale refurbishments or some limited refurbishment? I agree with the Minister. I think €636,000 per unit is mad. That cannot be justified but is there scope to do something small there and could he have moved some money around for that?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We will certainly keep engaging with the local authorities but we are not in a position where they are saying they will draw down all of their money and they are stuck. We have written to all local authorities to say if they are going to draw down all of their money for tenant in situ and there are a number left to close, they can do it. We will certainly engage with them and we can use certain funds. For example, if there were a couple of houses the council in Limerick felt it could close, we would certainly work with it to do that. My slightly bigger concern is that some local authorities will not draw down all of their money. It will go very close and I certainly hope they do. They should as there is no reason not to draw it all down.
I can give the Deputy another figure today. A number of different counties are under pressure. I think Limerick will be able to draw down all of its funding. Some are under pressure. I will give Carlow County Council as an example. It was given an allocation of €3.5 million and has drawn down nearly €3.1 million for five units. A large amount of the council's money is again going on refurbishment rather than purchase.
There are other pots for refurbishment and that is where that money should be coming from. Tenant in situ should just be for the purchase of the property, getting that purchase done and maximising the delivery of tenant in situ purchases. If there are issues with refurbishments, there are other methods and pots to take from. The local authorities should talk to the Department if there is a particular situation. I am sure that in some sale and tenant in situ situations, there will be particular problems that need to be addressed with refurbishment. It just should not come from the tenant in situ pot.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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On the additional €152.2 million that was allocated for homelessness, could the Minister drill into that? What will the expected outturn of that be?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Could the Deputy ask me that again, please?
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is about the additional sum that has been allocated for homelessness accommodation in under subhead A13.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The additional funding for homelessness is demand-led. It was probably addressed through Supplementary Estimates over the past number of years. We have rebalanced the budget for 2026 and the Deputy can see an increase in homeless supports in the base funding for that. It is demand-led and it has always been understood that what funding is needed to provide homeless supports would be-----
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Is there an increased outturn in terms of homeless prevention measures? What we do in terms of homelessness is far too reactive and we are not proactive enough. I mean both local authorities and the Department in that respect.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I saw a presentation on this yesterday. There are now record numbers of preventions. The preventions are absolutely key. The easiest thing to do is prevent people going into homelessness. That could be through tenant in situ, allocation of a social home, alternative HAP or homeless HAP, RAS or whatever the case may be but preventing people going into homelessness is absolutely key. Homelessness has a massive impact on people's mental health. I am very aware of that. It is not a place we want any children either. There is that focus on prevention but when people do end up in homelessness, we want them to exit as quickly as possible. That is why we have allocated an additional €100 million to secure homes for people in longer-term homelessness to get them out of it.
We have seen a significant increase in the delivery of social homes as well. The way to end homelessness is through the delivery of sufficient numbers of social home resolutions. We can all talk about the history of why but unfortunately, we were not delivering the social homes we needed and the capacity had been removed from the system. It is also about building up capacity so we can increase that delivery as well.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry; I looked at the wrong list of QPL speakers. I was further down when I went in and was looking at the previous week's schedule. The former Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, took my slot last week for his last speaking slot.
I have just a couple of questions. The Residential Tenancies Board is an issue we are dealing with. We are dealing with the pre-legislative stage in relation to that. There is an extra €4 million there. Does the Minister believe there is sufficient funding for the board to operate at the level it needs to operate from a staff and IT point of view? There are six additional executive officer posts. Is the Minister confident that the staff complement will be sufficient to deal with what will be a significantly enhanced RTB workload?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am confident because we also significantly increased its budget in budget 2026 as well. The combination of the increase in the Supplementary Estimates plus the other budgetary increase effectively means that compared to budget 2025, the board will receive an almost 70% increase in its funding in quite a short period. I am determined to ensure the RTB is fully resourced for what it needs to do in terms of the changes coming down the line but also in increasing its capacity for enforcement and data collection. We can then make even more informed policy decisions.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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As regards legal expenses, maybe the Minister cannot comment on this, but a case was taken by a Mr. Boal against the Minister for housing and the Attorney General. We are putting aside millions with regard to that. Is the Minister at liberty to say what it relates to?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It relates to defective concrete blocks. Other than that, I cannot comment on an ongoing case.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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With regard to extra funding, particularly for schemes that are run by the local authorities, are local authorities hitting targets a little higher or getting more applications processed through the system more effectively? More people are applying, but we are administering more of those applications, be it for croí cónaithe or whatever. Would I be right in saying that? Has there been an increase in output?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There has been an increase in output in the context of croí cónaithe, which we are very happy to see. That fund is crucial, in particular in our provincial towns, to contribute to urban renewal and to get people back living in our local communities. We have seen significant demand for that fund. I hope to see an increase in demand for it as we bring in, for example, changes to support the over-the-shop element.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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As regards vacant local authority houses and the grant that was there, this issue came up with regard to a figure of €11,000-odd per house per retrofit. Are there any increases envisaged or are there any proposals in respect of that?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There are no proposals at the moment, but we are looking at this with local authorities. Ultimately, local authorities need to ensure that they have sufficient budgets to manage their voids, as they are often known, and vacant social homes and that they can turn them around as quickly as possible. The discrepancy, if you like, between local authorities is quite extraordinary in the context of how quickly some consistently turn their vacant homes around in comparison with others and of the amount of money being spent. I do not have the data in front of me, but we published a table on this only about six weeks ago. I will be happy to get that for the Cathaoirleach. The table shows that there is a significant discrepancy. If two, three or four local authorities can turn their properties around quite quickly and at a lower cost, all local authorities should be able to do so.
The local authorities that are successfully turning their vacant social homes around quickly are those that have strong and robust planned maintenance programmes. They are keeping an eye on their social homes regularly and fixing problems as they happen, as opposed to some local authorities that do not have planned maintenance programmes whereby it is only when a person hands back a property that the local authority starts to inspect it and sees that there are significant problems with that property. Some local authorities try to do significant retrofitting when they get properties back, but, again, that should be done on a planned basis rather than in an ad hoc manner when a property is handed back.
In terms of the time it takes, some of that relates to refurbishing works but some of it is just a process. Some local authorities are just very slow about working their way through offers. Some applicants might have a legitimate reason for turning down offers, but the process of offering a property to a second person seems to be quite cumbersome in some local authorities. Other local authorities will, for example, identify maybe five people for one house. If the first person does not take it, the local authority will quickly offer it to the second person rather than having it go back into its system. Local authorities also have choice-based letting systems that work quite well. It comes down to planned maintenance and speedy systems. They make a huge difference.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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For the Minister's information, the committee made a decision and wrote to the CCMA to say that we will invite all local authorities to appear before us during 2026. I know he will have the Department measure the output of certain schemes and, as he said, the significant variances in output depending on the part of the country to which a scheme relates. That should not be the case. It is important that all local authorities be on the same level. There should be very little variance.
I will let in the other members again. I call Deputy Gould.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There will be €157 million in additional funding for homeless accommodation to allow for extra people entering emergency accommodation. I talk to my colleagues in different constituencies. They tell me that some local authorities have no funding left for emergency accommodation. Is this €157 million to give local authorities whose budgets have been spent funding to provide emergency accommodation for homeless people or is it additional funding?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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When it comes to emergency accommodation with local authorities, the policy is that anybody who needs emergency accommodation is to be provided with it, and local authorities can recoup those costs. There is not a simple block grant such that if a local authority runs out of money, it cannot provide more emergency accommodation. Anybody who needs emergency accommodation should be provided with it.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to hear this from the Minister's side. I and some of my colleagues will go back to local authorities on this matter, which was raised with me yesterday. Are we saying categorically that no local authority should turn people away or state that it does not have funding to provide emergency accommodation to anyone who legitimately presents as being homeless?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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If a local authority identifies a person as needing emergency accommodation, it should be provided. Funding should not be an issue when it comes to providing necessary emergency accommodation within a local area. That is the policy. Obviously, a local authority has to assess whether a person does, in fact, need emergency accommodation. That is different from the matter relating to the availability of funds.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does this €157 million relating to everyone who has reported an eviction to the RTB, whose eviction date has passed and who is overstaying? According to the figures, there has been an 11.7% increase in emergency accommodation in the past 12 months.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry. Will the Deputy run that by me again?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the €157 million include everyone who has reported an eviction to the RTB, whose eviction date has passed and who is overstaying? They will be homeless in the near future. Does that money relate to those people or will additional funding be needed to house them? The Minister commented a few minutes ago on providing the RTB with additional resources in order that it can collect the data. The RTB knows how many people are overstaying on notices to quit. Are those people who are on notices to quit and who are overstaying included when it comes to the funding the Minister has announced in the Supplementary Estimate?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The RTB does not make an assessment as to whether somebody needs emergency accommodation. That can be done only by the relevant local authority. The funding comes into it when someone presents to a local authority and it assesses them as needing emergency accommodation. Those persons should be provided with emergency accommodation, and the Department of housing will ensure that funds are made available to local authorities to provide such accommodation. The point of funding is with the local authority assessment and delivery as opposed to any decision by the RTB. The RTB does not make those assessments.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not saying it does. Maybe I have said it wrong or maybe the Minister is picking me up wrong. The point I am making is that an additional €157 million is provided in this Supplementary Estimate. That money is for emergency accommodation to cater for people who are becoming homeless. We know now - the RTB has the figures - that there are people who are overstaying who will enter homelessness in the near future.
Have those people been included in the Estimates? The Minister said the local authority will make the assessment of whether these people are in need of emergency accommodation. What if a person is made homeless? The Minister spoke about planning and preparing. The figures are out and we know that additional families who will become homeless. Is there provision made for them?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept that every one of those people will end up in emergency accommodation. They may find alternative solutions to their home situation. It goes back to the core principle that where anybody needs emergency accommodation, that should be provided by the local authority. Funding is not an issue. It is not at that point simply someone overholding. If someone presents at a local authority and are assessed as needing emergency accommodation, it will be provided, or it certainly should be, by the local authority and the funding will be made available for that. However, Estimates are just that - they are estimates. You try and make your best assessment, based on past experience, predicted future demand and information from local authorities. The Estimates are estimates.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister gave a figure to Deputy McGrath a while ago - I did not hear it - for the amount spent on the tenant in situ scheme. I think he said it was equivalent to 800 homes but I did not get the actual figure.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The expected outturn will probably be between 750 and 800 homes but we have to finalise the figure when we see it. Again, it is only an estimate because we will not know until the year is over and the local authorities report.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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What was the cost of that?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It will be a variation of that number. I gave some examples of figures from local authorities and I can give the Deputy-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, I am watching the time. I did not hear the figure the Minister gave Deputy McGrath earlier. What was it?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It was for the amount spent on the tenant in situ scheme.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The amount that has been drawn down to date is €209 million. That is the most recent figure.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We need a lot of local authorities to finalise what their drawdown is and what they are providing. For example, Cork City Council, with an allocation of €20 million, has drawn down €14,773,000 to date and has acquired 61 units. It also has additional headroom of €6 million on top of that €20 million. Therefore, in terms of being able to acquire properties, that is €26 million. For Cork County Council, the figure is €15 million.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have two minutes left. I did not ask the Minister that question. I asked him for the overall figure and he has given me the overall figure so far. Since he brought up Cork City Council, the council has done agreements with landlords and tenants to purchase their homes under the tenant in situ scheme. These are homes that should have been bought last January, February or March. We are going into December next week. We spoke to some of those tenants last week and those purchases have not been done yet. My worry is we will have a repeat of what went on earlier this year where local authorities used up all their allocation, so they will go into next year’s money and then there will be a cut-off next year, such as we had last year, on 4 April, when the tenant in situ scheme was shut down in Cork because of a lack of funding. We were talking about homeless figures here. The tenant in situ scheme is a proven way to prevent people becoming homeless. More resources should be put into the tenant in situ scheme.
The Minister also made the point about local authorities doing work to homes. It is frightening to me. Local authorities are bringing homes up to energy efficiency levels when they are buying them. They are putting in new windows and doors, insulating the houses or putting new heating systems in. We have climate targets we need to hit. Local authorities are trying to do that work when they buy homes that do not meet energy efficiency levels. The Government is stopping that funding. It is telling them to do the bare minimum and get people in. Down the road, we are going to be fined.
This reminds me of a discussion I had last night with the Tánaiste on the budget. During austerity we slashed local authority funding for housing maintenance, parks, playgrounds and footpath repairs. The Minister touched on this a while ago. Now we are paying the price because we see loads of work that should have been done but has not been done. I will give one example which the Minister raised. He spoke about preventative maintenance. There has been virtually no preventative maintenance done in any local authority since the financial crash, the reason being that governments have not provided the funding.
The Minister said that local authorities should be providing planned maintenance programmes. With what? If it is not in the budget or the Supplementary Estimates, where will they get the funding? The Minister compared some local authorities with others. What he fails to understand is that some local authorities are retrofitting houses that are 100 years old. I come from Gurranabraher. It was built by the local authority in Cork 85 years ago. Imagine the cost of retrofitting one of those houses to bring it up to standard if the same family have lived in it for 85 years. Compare that with a different local authority repairing a house that might be only ten years old. The Minister is not taking any of that into consideration. I ask him to take it into consideration when he is dealing with local authorities and providing funding and, if not, why not?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There is plenty of planned maintenance going on in local authorities across the country. That is evidenced by the fact that numerous local authorities are turning their properties over at a rapid pace.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Those properties are in good condition.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There is planned maintenance being done by those local authorities-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----but it is up to the local authorities to do planned maintenance. It is up to them to ensure they have sufficient funding to do it. It is not for central government to be funding what is a duty of the local authorities. The reason some social houses have fallen into very bad disrepair is that planned maintenance has not happened. I talk to the CEOs across the country and I know what is going on in the local authorities. There is a difference in what is happening in them in relation to maintaining and preserving existing social homes.
On retrofitting, there are separate funds for that. That should be done on a planned basis. It should not be on an ad hoc basis that the local authority decides to retrofit this home here over or that home over there simply because it has become vacant for whatever reason. Retrofitting should be done under planned maintenance. You do not need a home to be vacant to do retrofitting. The time to do it is on a planned basis, identifying the houses that are going to be done next and retrofitting the entire estate instead of random houses. It makes sense economically and from an efficiency perspective. What should not be done is to have funding to protect people from going into homelessness used for other purposes by local authorities. Even if those other purposes are worthy, they are not more worthy than preventing people from going into homelessness. That is why I have stopped that from happening. If local authorities want to criticise us for not having enough money for doing A, B or C, that is perfectly fine but they should not use the money for preventing people from going into homelessness.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask the Minister this?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I want to let Deputy Hearne in
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will leave it at this. Where in the Estimates is there provision for the preventative maintenance programmes or where in the overall budget is that budget? I will make one point to the Minister. There has been no preventative maintenance carried out for 26 or 27 years since the financial crash.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There has been in plenty of local authorities.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, I have put in parliamentary questions and does the Minister know what I am going to do when I get out of this meeting? I will put in more parliamentary questions looking for the breakdown since 2009 of what money was given to local authorities for preventative maintenance. I can tell the Minister-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy spoke the local authorities, he would-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, I will put questions in to the Department.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We have been over this point numerous times. I might let in Deputy Hearne.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The council retrofitted houses in Churchfield. I was born there so I know what I am talking about. It was supposed to do the whole estate, just like the Minister said. It ran out of money so it cut it back and then it ran out of money again. It ended up doing 30-odd houses in Churchfield Avenue. I was born in Churchfield Avenue above a shop there, so I know exactly what I am talking about. The plan was to do the whole of Churchfield and the council ended up doing 36 houses on Churchfield Avenue. If the Minister thinks that is a retrofitting programme, it is a joke.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Before I allow Deputy Hearne in, I will be parochial and speak about where I am from. I am not backing up anyone but we have done retrofitting programmes through the midlands retrofitting scheme, which received just transition funding. Numerous estates, including all 50-odd houses in a social housing estate in my own village, were completely retrofitted while people were living in those houses as part of a multimillion euro project. We have a list of estates to be done. We particularly identified older estates. There are programmes.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Cork City Council has 11,000 houses and 124 are going to be done this year. Can the Cathaoirleach explain why only 124 of 11,000 are being done?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The local authority is getting rent on all of those houses. That money stays within the remit of the local authority. I just know how it is done in my own county. We are bringing in local authorities next year. Perhaps those meetings will show us best practice so that we can show some other local authorities what they can and should be doing.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It will be a useful exercise, which I intend to carry out, to see how much of the rent being collected by individual local authorities is being used to maintain those properties and how much is being directed towards other things, rather than being used to maintain the stock.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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They have no other budget. Cork City Council put up its rates a few weeks ago. Local authorities are putting up rates and rents because of a lack of funding. That is a fact.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I will raise a question that follows on from this discussion to a certain degree. It is about the state of council stock. The Minister has spoken about what local authorities are using their budgets for. I do not believe local authorities are spending money on things that are frivolous or somehow a waste of money. Dublin City Council, the local authority in my area, most definitely is not. They are investing-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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That is not being suggested.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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The Minister is saying that they could look at how they are allocating their funding and that they may need to allocate it differently, however. There are issues in my constituency that I have spoken to people about. I have visited people's homes in Ballymun and I have seen mould on the walls and on pillowcases and dampness in sheets. I am sure the Minister has seen this in council houses himself. As I have spoken about before, and as the Minister will be very familiar with, these are very significant hazards that people are living with. A number of people have come to me recently who have issues with mould and damp in their houses but whose children also have additional needs, for example, as a result of autism. I know one of these people actually wrote to the Minister specifically and that he replied to them. I just do not see how it is acceptable for us to allow a situation to arise where people are left living in accommodation that is completely unsuitable to their needs and that is also substandard, resulting in impacts on health. I spoke about this in the Dáil last week and said that this is costing the State more. Not investing significantly in ensuring we have proper housing standards is resulting in costs for our health service. People are presenting with asthma and children are presenting with bronchitis, development delays and mental health issues.
The Irish State always built housing and provided it through the councils but we made a massive mistake in the 1980s and 1990s in shifting away from public housing. Part of the problem is that housing is seen as a commodity and not as what it fundamentally is, the building block of life. That is why it is very frustrating that, as was expressed by Deputy Gould and others, the allocation to councils to ensure housing is of a sufficient standard is clearly not adequate. How could it be adequate when people in my constituency are writing to or meeting with me to say that water is literally flowing down the inside of their houses and that there is mould? The council is telling them it is going to come out to fix it. It might send someone out to do something small but they are then put on a waiting list for years. Much of this housing was built as part of the regeneration. It is not old housing. It is housing that was built 20 years ago. I put it to the Minister that the allocation of funding to local authorities to deal with issues arising from substandard local authority housing is still inadequate.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Mould or any kind of damp in any house, including State-provided houses, is totally unacceptable. I 100% agree with the Deputy on that. It is a very dangerous health hazard that can result in lifelong impacts on people. It should not be accepted or tolerated by any local authority. We give significant funding to help local authorities with refurbishment, regeneration and ensuring that properties are maintained but it is ultimately the responsibility of the local authorities. They are the landlords in this case and they need to provide quality homes. Where there are issues, they need to fix them. If somebody else provided the properties, the local authorities still need to fix them and to then go after whoever is responsible. The primary priority has to be ensuring those homes are safe. That means ensuring there is no mould.
I am bringing in all of the local authority CEOs. While I want them to build more homes as quickly as possible, they have to be quality homes and maintaining existing stock is a priority. As I mentioned earlier, local authorities need to use the rent they are collecting to maintain their properties. That is absolutely essential. It should not be diverted elsewhere. The money might be diverted to very worthy projects and, if the local authorities want to criticise me or someone else for not providing enough funding for those projects, that is fine. However, the primary purpose of local authorities as housing authorities is to ensure their properties are safe, secure and of a certain quality. Where properties are becoming a health hazard - mould is a very dangerous health hazard - that should be addressed immediately.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We have a few minutes to go. With regard to storm damage, I see €25 million is being set aside for the local authorities. We had a joint meeting with the climate action committee with regard to preparedness for further storms and we had the County and City Management Association in. There were discussions going on. Will that figure adequately compensate each local authority for the claims it has put in?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly believe it will be enough to cover damage arising from Storm Éowyn. We also open up other programmes. For example, there was flooding in various counties last week as a result of Storm Claudia. The humanitarian assistance scheme opened up and the Cabinet decided to open up the Red Cross scheme for businesses through the Department of enterprise. The programme for Government commits to moving towards allowing these schemes to be globally opened immediately when necessary because some of them are quite cumbersome to open, even though they need to open immediately. We are satisfied that enough funding has been provided. If there is another storm and additional funding is needed, we will provide that funding.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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On Storm Éowyn and the humanitarian fund, when the storm hit last year, a number of soccer and GAA clubs were affected. High netting came down and other damage was done. These clubs could not claim under the scheme. We are now going to be looking at one or two big storms every year. The humanitarian fund should be extended to allow community groups and sporting organisations to make applications. What is the word I am looking for? After covering a given amount, you can make a claim. I think it is the first €15,000 you cannot claim.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the excess.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is the excess. Many community groups and sporting organisations do not have €5,000, €10,000 or €15,000. They do not have that kind of money. I know Cork City Council stepped in with some groups that were affected. This goes back to the whole area of funding. Local authorities step in where they can but I believe these groups should come under the remit of the humanitarian fund. Will the Minister look at that?
I hope we do not get any more storms but it is something we have to be prepared for.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The humanitarian scheme comes under the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and is specifically for homes. Businesses come under the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment but we are looking at all the cross-government schemes brought in as emergency measures. We are looking at a deeper level to see if they need to be expanded or changed, and how they can be opened more quickly. The one under the Department of Social Protection opens quite quickly. The one under the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment takes more time because a memo has to go to Cabinet, which seems a bit cumbersome.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee in considering the Supplementary Estimate.