Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have received apologies in advance of today's meeting from Deputy Jen Cummins.

You are all very welcome.

I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are either on silent mode or switched off entirely.

Members attending today's meeting remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

Witnesses participating from within the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of any presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The select committee is meeting this evening to consider the Supplementary Estimate Vote 26 with the Minister of State with special responsibility for special education and inclusion at the Department of Education and Youth, Deputy Michael Moynihan. I warmly welcome him and his officials to the meeting. I also thank the officials for the briefing document that was provided for the meeting.

The Estimates process is Dáil Éireann's method to allow the Department of public expenditure, national development plan delivery and reform to seek to withdraw funds from the Exchequer to meet most Government spending obligations. Articles 17.1.1° and 28.4.4° of the Constitution provide for the presentation to and consideration of Estimates by Dáil Éireann, respectively. Standing Order 217 requires Estimates to be considered in committee. It is a well-established practice that they are referred to the relevant sectoral select committee. Once hearings conclude, committees send a message to Dáil Éireann, which generally approves the Estimates without debate. Committees cannot amend Estimates and have no formal role in approving them. However, Standing Order 223 provides that the committees may make a report to the Dáil in respect of its consideration of Estimates.

I invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement. Following that, members will be able to ask questions. For members, we are not operating under the normal speaking roster, so it is lámha suas and it will be six minutes per member. We will go for a second round and a third or fourth round if required. I hope we will not get to a third or fourth round.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am delighted to be here for this. I served a long time on the education committee and actually chaired it a number of years ago. It is a powerful committee in advancing education policies, and I look forward to working and engaging with members this evening. I welcome the officials from the Department. I thank the committee for the opportunity to consider of the Department's Supplementary Estimate for 2025.

Following approval by the Government, the Department is seeking a net Supplementary Estimate of €567 million for 2025. This Supplementary Estimate includes additional funding to provide for costs required in the demand-led service areas of payrolls, pensions and transport, and continued services that are needed for Ukrainian students in the school system. I will briefly outline the key elements for the information of the committee.

There were additional pay requirements in the school sector for teachers, SNAs and other non-teaching staff of €455 million. This includes resources for additional staff allocated to schools in line with existing policies and set special education recruitment criteria. This is in a demand-led service area that is determined primarily by the level of school enrolments and the needs of pupils across some 4,000 individual schools.

The number of school enrolments also includes pupils who have arrived in Ireland as a result of the ongoing war in Ukraine.

These enrolments require additional school staff, including English as an additional language teachers, mainstream and special needs teachers and special needs assistants. In 2025, costs relating to the war in Ukraine were funded from a temporary contingency fund. Additional funding from this contingency fund is required due to the level of Ukrainian pupils that remain enrolled in our schools. Some €96 million of additional school transport funding is required for the provision of additional services. This is due to the increased number of pupils seeking places on school buses, especially pupils with additional needs, and an increase in bus contractor rates that are publicly-procured services. There are also increased pension costs of €29 million arising due to the costs associated with the number of school staff retiring being greater than the funding originally provided. The Supplementary Estimate also seeks to reallocate €9 million of existing capital funding to current expenditure for the shared island programme aimed at addressing educational underachievement.

An estimated additional €13 million in appropriations-in-aid income in excess of the amount provided for in the original Revised Estimates Volume allocations is included in the Supplementary Estimate which will partly offset the expenditure pressures I outlined earlier. This relates to increases to the pension contributions received due to additional numbers being employed in our schools and some additional capital expenditure receipts. I am happy to discuss these issues in more detail. I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State. In order of hands that went up, I will call Deputies O'Meara, O'Rourke and Dempsey and I will go fourth. There are six minutes per member. Please leave enough time for the Minister of State to appropriately respond.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State is very welcome back to the committee as are his officials, some of whom have been with us before and others very recently today as well. It is great to have them here. I would like to discuss figure 1 in the report presented relating to the breakdown of funding provided to the Department and where it has been spent, in particular the yellow section on capital infrastructure, €1.6 billion. It is 13% of the Revised Estimates Volume for 2025. How much of that €1.6 billion has been spent to date? Is it known?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The aim is to make sure every penny of it is spent within the year. We get an allocation and, as members all know, there is massive demand on the system for capital expenditure in the education system within the estates and within the schools. It is important that every penny we get is spent because we have huge demand. There are 4,000 schools and money to be spent on every single one. The Deputy will know that from his own constituency. It is aimed that every single cent of that will be spent.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would like to raise a few issues on capital expenditure. I am Fianna Fáil spokesperson on education and youth. I have been having conversations with colleagues across the country who are facing challenges around school building projects in particular, both figuratively and literally, getting them off the ground and the challenges around that. When I see the allocation of €1.6 billion, it is good to know it is being spent by the Department. In particular, I raise the case of the Ursuline Secondary School in Thurles. Four years ago next February, it will have been approved for a school building project. It has been at stage 2a since July. It is an all-girls boarding school in Thurles and has 900 students but was built for 650. A multimillion euro development was approved for this school but we have been struggling to get it past stage 2a. As part of that development, there are general purpose classrooms, a technology room, a science lab, a home economics room, ancillary services and an additional needs suite for classrooms. The special classes, the principal tells me, cannot open until the new extension is built. I can also give examples such as Nenagh Community National School, Scoil Naomh Cualán in Borrisoleigh, Kyle Park national school and Coláiste Phobal in Roscrea as examples of schools we are trying to progress in County Tipperary. The reason I give those examples is it is widespread across my constituency. Speaking to the principal in the Ursuline Secondary School, there is a frustration around trying to get the project progressed.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would be doing the same but the Deputy is giving examples and the Minister of State is not ready to answer on specific, granular details. If the Deputy can bring it back full circle - I am giving him a bit of leeway but bring it back. Make sure the question is quite general.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not have any difficulty.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Those were examples and I am back now. Under the national development plan, €7.55 billion is allocated to education, I understand. Can we expect increases in capital expenditure through the Department during this Government term?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On the Ursuline Secondary School, if appropriate, Chairman, Mr. Hubert Loftus, the head of the planning and building unit, has an update, if that is okay.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am very clear - I am going to give the same leeway or restrictions to all members here this evening, if the Minister of State and his team are okay with that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

As a general point, which can cover some of the examples as well, we currently have over 300 projects at construction. We have over 200 projects that went to construction in 2025 across large scale, the additional school accommodation scheme and modular programmes. That is €1.5 billion worth of projects at construction currently. As part of the roll-out of the national development plan, a €7.5 billion programme, we envisage probably another €1.3 billion plus cohort of projects going to construction over the course of 2026 and 2027. Taken together, that is almost €3 billion, a record level of funding. Only last week, the Minister announced the summer works scheme of almost 300 projects, a €90 million investment programme. As a general point, and the Minister would be well aware, special needs is a huge area of investment. The Deputy will have seen it in Tipperary and other areas. There is a huge number of special classes and significant roll-out of new special schools including in Nenagh.

On the project the Deputy referenced, the Ursuline Secondary School, the status of all projects is up on our website. We update that every month. That gives a clear picture of where all projects are at. Projects like that are devolved to the school authority for delivery. That project started life, got through the process of stage one and is now at stage 2a. That has only recently come into us. We are reviewing it. The review will determine the next steps, no more than any other project. All projects are considered in the context of the funding available and the national development plan, etc. We have quite a structured process for projects. The scale and complexity of a project dictates how quickly and the relative parameters considered in progressing projects. That is done to comply with the infrastructure guidelines from the Department of public expenditure. We assess them on a clear basis. We have a strong approach with schools generally about maximising existing capacity. They might be originally designed for a certain level but with good timetabling, use of facilities and utilisation, more can be achieved, which is important in the context of facilitating special needs classes and mainstream.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

A vote has been called. I will leave it to Deputy O'Rourke. He can get some of his questions in and we can head for the vote then.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will take the time. There is probably ten minutes. I thank the Minister of State for being here. There is €455 million for demand-led services and staff in particular. Is that usual? Does it say something about our projections and how children are tracked across maternity services on to preschool and starting school? I accept people are coming into the country. It seems a significant piece in and of itself. Related to that is the special education piece. How does the Department budget for how many kids are going to be in special classes and special school places next year? How does that relate to the October deadline?

I ask the Minister of State to address the concern among a lot of parents that, having missed the October deadline, there will not be a place for their child in a special class or special school next year. The NCSE is saying it cannot issue letters of eligibility because the parents have missed the 1 October deadline. How does the Department budget for that for September 2026? Many of these parents now have recommendations for a special class or school place. If they do get the place their child needs, there will be a different allocation for special education teachers and special needs assistants. Will the Minister of State speak to that?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Department of education is very much demand led. There are challenges. We have an overhang from the war in Ukraine. There are a number of issues that have caused us to seek a Supplementary Estimate. Teachers and SNA numbers are at an all-time high. There is something short of 80,000 teachers and just short of 25,000 SNAs in the education system.

The 1 October deadline is crucially important in how we plan for the next school year. Over the past couple of years, the Department has made huge efforts in bringing the deadline to 1 February or earlier. We saw the challenges we had, particularly in March and April-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Sorry to interrupt the Minister of State, but I understand the principle here. There are real issues with getting assessments, and some of that is not the Minister of State's responsibility. I am particularly interested in those children who have missed the 1 October deadline.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If the Deputy does not mind, I will outline that. I have that point and I want to get to it. There is better planning. I take the point on the statistics on the number of children born but there is movement within the system as well. While we may think there is a need for an extra teacher in a particular school, it may be some time before we know what is actually needed. The State has invested hugely in SNAs and special education teachers in recent years.

We brought the deadline back to 1 October deadline and everybody has welcomed that. I think the Deputy is on record as welcoming it. The NCSE will continue to engage and support children and families who come forward after the 1 October deadline. Last year, a number of students came after the 1 February deadline and the deadline was extended because-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is it a case that the NCSE is working through the 1 October-----

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If the Deputy gives me a chance, since 1 October, the Department of education and the NCSE have been constantly monitoring, working through and making decisions based on the information we have received. This is a very important piece. We gave a commitment to have special classes announced before Christmas in order that families would have certainty. That work is continuous and is in progress. Over the next number of weeks, when all that information has been studied and decisions made on it, we will bring a full memorandum to Cabinet.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am conscious of the time. We are going to suspend for a vote. When votes begin, things can become fragmented but I ask all members to return straight after the vote concludes. I am sorry for intruding on Deputy O'Rourke's time. He will be in possession when we resume.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The voting is finished, so we are going to continue with our session. Deputy O'Rourke has two minutes.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State for his response. We might have clarity as soon as possible in terms of how children and families who either have or do not have recommendations and who missed the 1 October deadline will be handled, because there is concern generally in that regard.

Is there information in relation to a school building project in terms of the capital allocation of €1.6 billion? Coláiste Ríoga and Dunshaughlin Community National School in County Meath comprise one project. There is a wait for a letter of acceptance to be issued. Is there an update on that?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

To reassure everybody, the 1 October deadline was set to make sure we had better forward planning. In terms of that, the Department and the National Council For Special Education, NCSE, met patron bodies and so forth, not just this year but over the past number of summers, to make sure we are matching the special classes and looking at the challenges that exist. That work is being done on a very intensive basis by all concerned. The NCSE will continue to support the families of those children who came to its attention after the 1 October deadline. There is a lot of work, whether it is in the context of existing school placements or special classes, but the NCSE will continue to work with them to ensure they are supported.

In the context of the school building, I do not have the exact detail on that project. Mr. Loftus might comment on that if he does not mind.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

Coláiste Ríoga and Dunshaughlin Community National School are a campus project. They are in Dunshaughlin. It is an important project for us. It is in the final stages of the procurement process in terms of tendering; it is going through the tendering process. We would expect that process to conclude quickly and that they now will be moving on to construction.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will that be before Christmas, early quarter 1 or even January? When might that happen?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He might announce it now for the Deputy.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Mr. Loftus will appreciate that planning permission was granted in November 2020.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

We are conscious of the timeline. I would always be a glass half full rather than glass half empty person when looking at timelines and moving forward as quickly as we can.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not a bad answer the Deputy got there. I thank Mr. Loftus, including for the latitude in his answer. We appreciate it. Next up is Deputy Dempsey.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for being here. Some of them have had a long day with us.

In the €338 million for school transport, what is the breakdown between mainstream and children with additional needs?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Off the top of my head, there are 150,000 students on mainstream school transport and 21,000 on the special educational needs, SEN, side of it. The investment has increased dramatically over the last number of years. The breakdown between SEN and mainstream is approximately 60:40.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

My next question relates to transport and school building projects. I have a school in Trim, Scoil Mhuire. We were trying to get a pilot scheme from Rathcore in the Enfield direction to Scoil Mhuire and we were told "No" because the planning building unit had confirmed that the school was due to be moved to a new campus on a site purchased in 2021. I suppose that is why that school bus route was turned down as part of the pilot. The school has been meant to move since 2021. The Gaelscoil in Trim, which is currently in a former factory, is meant to move onto that site as well but it is still sitting at stage 2b. I am wondering whether the Minister of State can give me an update.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On the school transport side of it, there were 14 pilot projects done in the previous year and they were followed up by a number of pilot projects last year. There is an overall view being taken by the Department. The Department is prudent in relation to how it decides on what schools are doing it and the capacity. There is no point in the Department of education approving a school transport project or pilot scheme and busing students from one school that has capacity to one that does not right now.

The Department is careful in terms of how we look at the pilot projects. The school transport section goes through them meticulously, I suppose, in terms of issues that would have arisen the previous year or in the last number of years, and then it looks at whether there is capacity within the schools being talked about. It would be bad management of the funding that we get from the Exchequer to be busing children from one school that has capacity to one that is at capacity. I do not have the exact detail, but until there is capacity at the other school, we cannot have a position where we are spending money busing people to some facility where there is not capacity.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I suppose my point was probably badly made. I am saying that not progressing the building projects has knock-on effects. That is my overall point. I have two schools that have been at stage 2b since 2021 and I have another - Boyne Community School - that, over a decade since it was announced, remains at stage 2a. It is frustrating. I have the parents on to me. They are number 61 on the waiting list to get into Boyne Community School, with a project that was announced over a decade ago. I suppose I do not have a question. It is more a statement. Has the Minister of State any update on these projects?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On those two schools, we might get a fuller reply back to the Deputy, if that is okay. Has Mr. Loftus some specific comment?

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

We can go back on the individual one, but I suppose it is to make the general point that there are a lot of projects happening. There are a lot of projects out at construction and a large cohort of projects to progress to construction that will get pushed out there in due course. In my job as head of the planning and building unit, I have to look at the national remit, where the priorities are nationally and where the particular pressure points are. SEN is a particular pressure point to manage. I appreciate that the Deputy has to look at her own particular area. I suppose we have a wider area to look at. We have to look at the overall needs and see. When we are looking at needs and managing those, they have to be considered in the context of how existing space can be maximised and utilised.

I would make another general point as well. When schools are looking at their enrolment policies, to what extent are they prioritising the local need in terms of both SEN and mainstream and to what extent are some of their accommodation pressures coming from the fact that there may be pupils coming from a wider hinterland who do not necessarily need to come from that hinterland? Those are the sort of issues that need to be considered as managed when assessing what are the priorities to be progressed forward as part of the school building roll-out.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I refer to the grants to school, at 6%, of €769 million. We were talking at length this morning about the ancillary grants and the capitation grants. What percentage would the Minister of State hope to see that at over the next couple of years?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I suppose the one thing that we would find, on the capitation funding and the ancillary funding, is that all the schools, be they primary schools or post-primary schools, have very ambitious plans and they are always looking for funding to advance the cause of their school, their pupils and the cohort that are working in them as well.

There was significant capitation funding announced in this year's budget. That came strongly from the school communities. At the time that the then Minister, Deputy McEntee, and I would have visited schools, capitation was a hugely important discussion at the school gate. We have provided significant elements. We have tried to help special schools as well in terms of capitation and making sure that the cohort aged from 12 to 18 are getting the same funding as their counterparts or peers in post-primary education, but there is more work to be done there. This year and into 2026, there are considerable moneys being spent. I suppose that is to try to balance the cost-of-living sums that were given in the last number of years, which were no longer available to the Exchequer. This has helped to fund schools. We understand the pressure that schools and school communities are under to run efficiently and effectively. I compliment the school boards of management, teachers, SNAs and the teams within the schools the length and breadth of the country for the amazing work they are doing every day and understand the challenges that they have.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am up next in the speaking roster. I thank the Minister of State and all his officials. I hope it is okay to mention one. Ms Cliodhna O'Neill has been here already today for several hours. She is really doing the hard graft today. I appreciate all of her support to the committee earlier. Indeed, all of the Minister of State's officials have been excellent. I acknowledge that at the outset and thank them in front of the Minister of State. It is important that people be acknowledged for all that they are doing. We appreciate that.

I thank the Minister of State for what he is doing as well. He once sat in this chair. He is doing a superb job. I see, on his Instagram and Facebook, he is popping up all over the country. I say, "Well done", and thank him for all he is doing. The Minister of State is giving time to schools. I have seen him go in and sit down with children and staff and engage with people.

I have a few questions I would like to put.

When the committee was establishing itself, we found it easy to devise a work programme for education. You could meet twice a week in education. We had to pinch ourselves a few times and tell ourselves we were also the committee on youth. I was looking at the pie chart. I used to love looking at those when I was teaching. There is a small slice for youth. Will the Minister of State give us any commentary on that? We are cognisant that we need to do more to spotlight youth. Is it a poor relation here or in the Department? Where does it fit overall budget-wise?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I also pay tribute to the officials I am honoured to work with. They are top of the range and have done a huge amount of work. There is not a subhead or piece of information they do not have in terms of the funding and challenges. I have seen at first hand that they have looked at the challenges they may have had in a previous school year and at how they are going to rectify them or put forward proposals. Long may we have officials of that calibre, not just in this Department, but across Government.

Youth services came over to the Department in the configuration. It is new into the Department of education. There has been a substantial increase of €8 million in the budget for 2026. That is €4 million for current and €4 million for capital to support and sustain the development of youth services. The youth services we are looking at are youth organisations. It is completely separate from schools. It is youth organisations like Foróige, Macra na Feirme and others. It is about getting young people to participate in organisational structures. There is a huge benefit to young people from being involved in those organisations. It is harder for those organisations to fundraise for activities they are using.

It is not the poor relation of the Department. It is new into the Department. It was in the Department many moons ago, but it is in the Department and is a hugely important piece. The European Union, in its Presidency next year, will be focusing particularly on youth and youth development, and on the Erasmus and other such programmes.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is it mostly in Deputy Moynihan's remit or that of the Minister, Deputy Naughton?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is in the Minister's remit. I am on the special education and transport side of it. The Minister has youth. It would be remiss to say it was the poor relation because the staff are looking at the development of it and understand the importance of it. A lot of initiatives across Government are looking at disadvantage and non-participation in society. The money is there for the youth initiatives to try to get more young people engaged in civic society. How to get more young people to engage in civic society was something we looked at in another committee over the years. The funding on youth affairs certainly helps. Also, how do we delve into the real disadvantaged areas to get people to participate in civic society? Therein lies the leadership in trying to get people. We have seen it active in different schemes funded by the Department and Government over the years.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In the Minister of State's opening statement, he referenced Ukrainian students and that there was a need for a budgetary top-up. I do not disagree with that; I recognise that is needed. My real concern, unless I am wrong, is that the EU temporary protection directive started in March 2022, immediately after the war was declared. It is shocking to think we are coming up on four years. We have all been following for the past 24 hours the news that a peace deal of some sort has been cobbled together. It is worrying and a whole different debate. However, if a peace deal gets worked on between now and March, it is conceivable that the European Union will rescind the temporary protection directive. That would be great and people would return and be safe. In September 2026, that huge number of Ukrainian students in our schools, and their families, would no longer have the right to be here and would be returning home. When they arrived in 2022, the school community had colossal flexibility. I remember classes being taught in cloakrooms and everything being cobbled together to make this a roaring success. The flexibility shown by the Department, schools, boards of management and parents worked, and it had to work. We got to a point where it became workable. My worry is that if they all leave in September, the flexibility the Department had towards schools might go. Rural schools in particular have staffing levels dependent on these students. Is there anything the Minister of State can say in terms of reciprocal fairness and flexibility?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The amount of work done at school gate level by the Department since February 2022 on school transport is incredible. We turned water into wine in some instances in terms of development and where kids came to rural places. We cannot have a cliff edge and will not be having a cliff edge. We will have to have some transitional arrangement to wind down. We have a few pieces to go. Internationally, we are seeing intense negotiations ongoing. If they get over the line, then people will start to move back, but we will not have a cliff edge. We will have to transition in a meaningful way. If we have a cliff edge, we will cause consternation in school communities that have stepped up to the plate and made a difference in facilitating Ukrainians across the country.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I can think of one school where half of its enrolment is made up of Ukrainians. It is just where the accommodation centre is. It is a rural school and it and the Department have done everything to make that a success. I take some hope from the Minister of State's words. It would be devastating to think that they would all go home and the staffing and everything the schools gained in those years would go. It is for another day.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will continue on the Ukrainian point linked to the one the Chair was discussing. I brought it up in the joint committee earlier that Ms O'Neill was present at. It relates to schools like those mentioned by the Cathaoirleach. I have examples of a couple of schools. I am not naming them. A lot of the school body is now either Ukrainian students or students coming out of IPAS housing. In those cases, the demands on the school - the additional language needs and financial demands - are increasing. I have spoken with two schools in particular where, in a lot of cases, the local families in that town or village are opting for another local school where they feel there are fewer demands. We are seeing that the rural school outside a town has numbers increasing and the local school in the town does not have as many local families going to it anymore. There is one in particular. It links to the point about grants to schools and additional language supports. It is worrying. This a policy point I will make to the Minister of State and his officials while they are here. It is about schools that are seeing increased demands in terms of financial needs while at the same time the socioeconomic status of the families in the school is lower than it was, so there is less ability to fundraise or provide funding from families. There are some I worry about that could end up in a spiral as well, so we should get those supports. It links into the point the Chair was making about student numbers and if families were to leave. It is a policy point that has come to my attention. If I have individual schools, I will come to the Minister of State and his officials on it. I do not necessarily have a question.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I take the point. Ms O'Neill might come in. I know that schools have done a huge amount of work. They have stepped up to the plate in accommodating not just Ukrainians, but also others who have come in. There is a mechanism throughout the year whereby schools can apply to the Department for more resources like funding. Needs change in some schools overnight. There may be three, four, five or more students coming in from international protection, or they may be Ukrainians. There is a great emphasis on support. It is important from a national point of view that we break down the barriers in primary and second level education with regard to international people coming into the country.

That is where barriers are broken down. We have seen it across the globe and in our own case as well. Does Ms O'Neill want to come in on the specifics of it?

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am conscious that I got an answer from the Minister of State earlier. It was a good discussion as well. In this case, I am just seeking to make the policy point. I am not asking for Ms O'Neill to do the same with me. I am not doing it for any reason other than-----

Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:

It might be helpful for me to add one point that was not made earlier. When additional children arrive there is flexibility within the schoolbooks scheme, for example, for schools to apply for additional books. They may have bought fourth class books and may now need first class books, for example. There is a possibility to apply for additional funding once it relates to more than a handful of students. That does happen, schools apply and we pay out those grants throughout the year.

The review that was done by the OECD last year suggested that the Department should look at schools outside of the DEIS programme and how students are being supported. That is being considered for the long-term evolution of that programme in discussions with the DEIS advisory group and with the Minister.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Ms O'Neill, the Minister of State and the Cathaoirleach.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will pick up on the point related to youth. We are here to deal with the Supplementary Estimates. I am right in saying there is not a supplementary ask in relation to youth. People who are watching at home may not be looking at the pie chart we are looking at, but it is quite obvious to me that youth, youth services and youth funding are the poor relation. There is €86 million being provided, and €8 million - €4 million and €4 million - on top of that. It is a fraction of a very large pie in education and youth, and of a far bigger pie in the Government spend and the budget we deal with.

Oíche na hÓige was a success. I attended Ratoath Foróige in Meath East and 5th Meath Kells Scouts are doing tremendous work. They have very clear asks and we did have a hearing before the committee as well. There are requests for capital funding and direct funding for these services. It is the type of wise spending on behalf of the Government that delivers many times over but it is difficult to capture it in terms of budgeting and economic outworks. I am just making that point.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I know the Minister of State is representing the senior Minister today, and this is more an issue for her, but I just want to make that point as clearly as possible. Whatever extra allocation we can give to youth services will be returned in spades. That is my experience of it so I want to make that point.

I have a question about the shared island fund. The Minister of State mentioned in his opening statement that this is current rather than capital expenditure now. A number of us attended a launch yesterday from Féach, and Angel Eyes in the North, about shared island-funded research around teacher training and recognition in response to children at school with a visual impairment. What is the plan for the shared island funding, in regard to this Supplementary Estimate?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will take the point about youth and youth affairs. I met the Minister, Deputy Naughton, last week to congratulate her on her appointment. I look forward immensely to working with her and have had many engagements with her in the recent past. I think it is important that we understand and we can value the outcomes of people being involved in the scouts, Foróige or Macra na Feirme, or whatever form of civic engagement people have and how it stands to them in life. When we talk about schools, there is a certain matrix or measure of outcomes that can be seen. I take the point about investment in youth services.

There are a number of very good initiatives in the shared island funding. One of them is the Middletown Centre for Autism in south Armagh. That is a hugely impressive piece of work that the shared island initiative has been funding. It just goes to show the capacity of what we can do in the shared island initiative and what we can do right across the island when we pool resources. I am sure the Deputy has visited the centre and has seen the excellent work being done there. We are talking about the funding of the shared island initiative to ensure we are targeting it. People from that centre in Armagh have visited every school in the Republic as well as in the North and have shown the benefits of it. The Deputy may have been there when they were asking for more investment for their specific asks. They were setting up that initiative 20 years ago, when I was chairing this committee.

We have a number of programmes on the education side that we will continue to fund under the shared island initiative. There is the RAISE programme and the teachers’ research exchange programme, known as T-Rex, as well. If we are to do right by the future of education, we have to continue to engage and ensure teachers are trained, advised and given the best possible resources. There is great scope as well under that scheme. I know that across government, the shared island initiative has the ability to offer further funding to the likes of the autism centre and those who have the expertise when it comes to visual impairment. The shared island initiative has looked at a number of other issues. A group from north Cork brought children from the North of Ireland to New York. They were talking about how to defuse a bomb. They are now looking at how we can use the shared island fund to look at deprivation and education in Belfast, Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Derry and how that can be funded. They have a philanthropist group in New York they are looking at. I have been very engaged with them and have seen the amount of work they have done. That is something that should certainly be done from the shared island funding because it would bring a huge focus not just in our own State but right across the island.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will get the Deputy in again. I have a question about SEN accommodation, which is included in the Minister of State's opening statement. Huge inroads have been made. I remember that when we were putting down motions at a council meeting in Clare some years ago, there were one or two autism classes in the entire county. I think there is now one in most schools, so huge inroads have been made. While there is huge positivity from the Department - it is even writing to schools to ask them to open autism classes - I am increasingly seeing that the practicalities are somewhat tricky. If an autism class opens in west Clare, for example - this could be anywhere in the country - there will be six places available, a SENO will immediately start to engage with families and the class will fill up very quickly. If, two years on from that, children in the locality need to get into the local autism class but it is full, they will be sent back the other way to the other side of the county. There are a lot of cars crossing each other in the morning on the road. I understand the difficulty that the SENOs have. If they are opening a class for six students in September, they do not want to half-fill it and wait to see what happens in years two and three. I get all of that. I understand the constraints. I am just making the point that we have cars in every county, not just Clare, criss-crossing each other because of the enrolment allocation model that is there at the moment. Can that ever be looked at?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

A huge amount of work has been done by the Department, the National Council for Special Education and the primary schools on special education. When I came into this job, many people were advising us to look at international best practice and one of the best examples was in Scotland. When we went to Scotland to look at this, the secretary for education there said we should not copy Scotland but instead should look closely at what we are doing because our special education accommodation model is being looked at across the European Union and elsewhere.

On the other specific question of need, the Department of education and the NCSE are working to look at where the need is and where the children are and trying to put the classes as close as possible to where the need is.

Everyone understands that the crisscrossing by bus or other transport is not sustainable and is not in the best interests of the pupils or families. However, the challenge is that the six pupils are put into a class and may start at a young age in that class. Those six children will be in primary school until they are 12 or 13 years of age and then a need comes up in the community. Is it the case that we must open a special class in the neighbouring school? If six children are going to one school and a new class opens in the next parish, it is not possible to say that a child is closer to the next parish and therefore should move on. Relationships will have been built among the six students and the families will have built relationships, so it is important that there is the least amount of disruption to those six students. Some people might want to move anyway, but the point the Deputy made was that it was important that we try to ensure the need was dealt with in the local community insofar was possible. A lot of work has been done at school level and there are great grants from the Department of €30,000 and €70,000 for repurposing. However, it is important to have the least amount of disruption so as to have better outcomes for the children.

Ms Martina Mannion:

I will add to what the Minister of State said. It is a little like what Deputy O'Rourke asked about forward planning in special education. A number of years ago, the Department and the NCSE looked at all the factors that gave rise to the need for special education places in order to have a more strategic planning process. We did a thorough analysis of all the students in special schools and classes. We reviewed all the information on the primary online database, POD, and the post-primary online database, P-POD. We focused keenly on the transitions. We not only looked at the proportion of students attending special classes nationally, but we broke it down by county and school planning area for the specific purposes the Cathaoirleach is talking about. We have had 1,600 new special classes in the past four years. The Cathaoirleach will see from that information that every county got additional special classes in recent years, in primary and post-primary schools.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It has been a big success.

Ms Martina Mannion:

We are conscious of the issue the Cathaoirleach spoke about. The planning and building unit and special education work together intensively every week. We looked at the schools that did not have any special education classes, including large and medium primary and post-primary schools. In primary schools that have eight classes or more and have no special education class or have just one, we have engaged intensively with the patrons and school management bodies. The Cathaoirleach alluded to the NCSE contacting all those schools. That all happened so that we could ensure, to the greatest degree possible, that we could get those additional classes sanctioned by the end of the year in order for parents to have certainty from January about where those new classes would be.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is good.

Ms Martina Mannion:

It is happening four months earlier, as the Minister of State said, than last year. All of that is happening in a methodical way. The national data just did not give us the granular information at county or school planning area level that was needed to get the right classes in the right place. As the Minister of State said, where people are happy and settled, on a human level we do not want them to have to move, but the idea is that there will be a sufficient breadth of special classes at primary and post-primary schools across the country so that as children leave and new children come in, there will be special classes in their local communities to support their needs.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I could not agree more. I am not being critical of something that has been successful, but I will illustrate an example. When I started in Dáil Éireann six years ago, a mother in my county used to email me every second week and I asked parliamentary questions about her. She was a go-getter. She had a toddler with an autism diagnosis and she was moving heaven and earth to make sure her local school would be able to provide for the child. Lo and behold, the Department worked wonders. An autism class was set up, but when that class was developed and funded - it was fabulous and state of the art - it filled immediately. By the time the woman's child was of schoolgoing age, the woman who had led the campaign for the local autism class found she could not get her daughter in. She is going one way and there are children going another way. The Minister of State visited a school recently and he went down very well with them. He met some children. One of the children had come from Limerick that day to a school in the middle of Clare. I do not want to see people pulled and told they are being moved back to a school closer to home. However, NEPS or some organisation has to have some cognisance of the children coming up behind and whether we can meet their needs locally. That is the general point.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The aim is to have the special classes in communities. In recent years, a massive number of special classes have been opened across the country. However, there are still gaps in the system. There are still parts of urban and rural Ireland that do not have special classes in primary or post-primary schools. The Department is conscious of making sure those gaps are filled. I take that point. However, we have to be careful and be mindful of all sides in the argument, including those who are travelling. In a special school, because of the diagnosis or complexity of need, you may see someone leaving home at 7.15 a.m. and not getting back until 4 p.m. We have to challenge ourselves to find a better system for that child. That child would probably have profound needs. There is a bit of work to be done on it. I cannot stress enough how the departmental officials and the NCSE are meticulously working to try to ensure what the Cathaoirleach is talking about is avoided. It will be avoided if we can create more special classes across communities in remote rural places and urban places.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If there are no members who wish to come in, I have a few additional points to make.

There was a pilot school transport scheme led by the Minister of State. It has worked well. Some areas needed a lot of tweaking, such as Sixmilebridge in my area. Some other parts of the country and county worked much better. Every now and again, the Department announces that there will be a brand new school in a brand new, up and coming community with new housing developments, which we need more of. A new principal will be recruited and everything will be new. It is a school that has never existed and is usually run by Educate Together or an ETB. I suggest that we pilot something far more innovative when we get a brand new school like that.

Like many members, I have been to the United States of America. In any small village or town, there will be two or three buses parked up that belong to the school or school community and there is a local governance model for it. Would it not be wonderful if we could get to the point where one of these new schools could be given a bus and told that, when staff are being recruited - a caretaker, SNAs and a secretary need to be recruited - someone who is licensed to drive that vehicle is to be recruited? It happened in the secondary school I attended. I grew up in south Clare where the local secondary school was in Limerick city. My secondary school happened to win "Blackboard Jungle", presented by Ray D'Arcy, and we won a minibus. It was glorious. The minibus arrived into the yard with balloons hanging off the mirrors. The caretaker was asked to get a licence to drive a minibus. We were the only school in Limerick, Clare or the country perhaps that had its own school bus. When we wanted to go somewhere, we did not have to ring the local coach or bus company. We had a bus at the front door. That has worked well. There were no national car tests, NCTs, then and there was duct tape and everything holding it together when I left school, but it was still going. Would it not be great, like in America, if a bus were assigned to schools? Perhaps it could have a specific colour. It could go to hurling and swimming lessons and collect children for school. It would be efficient.

The only other suggestion I want to make relates to something a principal said to me recently. It was a ball hop but it was not really. Her school is at risk of closing, as often happens in rural areas. She asked what if the Department flipped things on their head with schools like hers and instead of looking at the enrolment numbers the school was losing, losing teachers and the school closing, the Department could look at buildings like hers that were kitted out for education and say the school way out down the peninsula could be a special school for children in the remote area. Not everyone would have to come into the county town for special education. Cars and buses could go the other way. Rather than closing the school and wondering what to do with the lovely building, some education could be moved out to more satellite schools.

They are two suggestions that are a little out of the ordinary. I apologise for the curve balls, but the Minister of State is a man who is well able to catch them and throw them back.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On special education and special schools, we are probably reinventing the wheel. Previous Ministers and departmental officials, when vocational education started in a major way back in the 1950s, were looking at capacity in communities and they turned community centres and other old buildings into schools.

The Department is looking at school buildings in the context of special education. I take the point on centralising the special education requirement. If you have to drive into a major town or a commuter belt area to get to a special school, it adds another challenge in view of the volume of traffic. Students with profound needs could face challenges in that regard.

The fundamental point relating to special schools is size. The authorities in the North of Ireland are looking at building a massive special school to accommodate 500 students. I do not think that can work. The challenges that exist in special schools in the context of the students and the teams that are there, the smaller the units are the better. Smaller units do not have the same challenges, and they can build in a very positive community within the special schools as well. It is completely outside of my area, but I did see one rural school recently where the management looked at whether it would opt to become a Gaelscoil at primary school level. The community is not within the Gaeltacht, but they have had great engagement on it. I take the point that we should not be looking at centres.

We have some element of campus education in Meath, where a primary school, post-primary school and special school are all on the same campus. Heretofore, the special school was probably located at the end of a lane or wherever there was land or a site available. There is a campus in Meath we are hoping to visit some time in early January. Children with additional needs are going in the same school gate as their peers at that location. I take the point that we do not have to have it centralised in every community. In some remote places, there are better facilities. One of the visions that we did see in Scotland related to a special school that was on a site with a post-primary school. Those schools have a shared orchard area and a shared wooded area. It is a small school with facilities being shared.

On school buses, I suppose we are actually live. I had an uncle who was the principal of a post-primary school many years ago. The school had a minibus. It was a white Hiace van. As a family, we were in the white Hiace van heading for Ballybunion at one stage.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

From the direction of Kiskeam I presume.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes, from the centre of the universe. At that time, the school had a bus for sporting activities and so forth. Coláiste Treasa in Kanturk bought a bus many years ago. The comprehensive school in Boherbue has its own bus that it uses for matches and for school transport. It is an initiative the school has built.

We are looking at various ways to integrate the school transport system as much as is possible. On the value of school transport to families in rural communities, villages or towns, the Cathaoirleach, as a rural public representative, will know that when a ticket is taken from a family or when that family cannot get a ticket or the pilot scheme is not run, there is real value placed on school transport. When free education came in, it was to enable people to go to school because they did not have transport at home. Now, it is because both parents are working. It does enable people to use it. We have to be very innovative. We had a brief discussion earlier about integrating more with Rural Link, Local Link and any other facilities that exist, and how we can have an integrated transport system.

I take the point about buses. It would be something that could work. Some schools would have a bus that would be running on a route that would not normally be picked up. The bus would be picking up students who would not ordinarily be eligible for transport to the school involved. There are a number of schools that have such buses. This is something we need to look at in the context of policy. The school transport system can be the subject of greater integration but we have to ask how we go about achieving that. We are constantly trying to grow it. We have seen over the past five years how capacity has grown immensely. The Department and the Government are pumping 150% more funding into the system than was the case in 2014. We could spend as much again, but we do not have an endless pot of money for school transport.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

My local school is an example. Many of the school buses are actually Bus Éireann fleet contracted to the Department of education in the mornings. A beautiful Bus Éireann bus comes down through the village full of children and does a drop-off at 9 a.m. The school bus digital logo is then taken off and it returns from Clare to its depot in Limerick city. It is a Bus Éireann public bus contracted for the outward journey to the school. It turns away from the school gate empty, in the heart of the village, and goes back into the heart of Limerick city. It is the most desirable of all routes, from the village to the city centre, but it leaves empty. I listened to the audiobook of former Minister Eoghan Murphy while I was painting the house a few months ago. He spoke about loads of things, but one that I remember is how he said that he had wonderful ideas, and his colleagues had wonderful ideas, but that Departments operate in silos. If the Minister of State could even say to his colleagues in the Department of transport that if it is a Bus Éireann fleet vehicle, it should not go back out that road again empty if it is in a rural village. As a rural TD, the Minister of State will get the point.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do. One of the contractors providing school transport is collecting team members and workers for particular factories at 7 a.m. or 7.30 a.m. When they have them dropped off to the factory, they go on to the school bus route. They were saying that it is making it more viable for them to upgrade buses, pay drivers accordingly and everything else. There are initiatives. Those are contractors who do the specific routes. To be fair, the Department and Bus Éireann worked right through the summer on school transport issues. They are looking at innovative ways of trying to improve the system and have greater access for kids. The State does not have endless resources to fund this so we have to be very careful that whatever is being done is done in a prudent way.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their constructive engagement. I was very impressed with Mr. Loftus's geographical knowledge. I will contact him another day. There are loads of schools projects, but he was able to provide the granular detail, which he did not have to do tonight and which, generally, is not what the committee is about. I thank him for being flexible in that regard. I thank Ms Mannion for taking questions as well. That concludes our consideration of the 2025 Supplementary Estimate for Vote 26.