John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Good morning. Apologies have been received from Deputy Aird. He intends to contribute later.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such directive. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off or in silent mode.

The first item on the agenda today is the consideration of Supplementary Estimate for the public services 2025: Vote 37 – Social Protection. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Dara Calleary, and his officials to the meeting to discuss the Vote. While the committee has no role in approving the Estimate, they provide an ongoing opportunity for it to examine departmental expenditure to make the budgetary process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues. The Supplementary Estimate for Vote 37, Social Protection, was presented to the Dáil on 12 November 2025. The Social Protection Vote is significant in terms of overall expenditure, accounting for over €27 billion, or approximately 25% of the total annual budget. The important functions, roles and responsibilities bestowed on the Department are reflected in its budgetary allocation. We, as representatives, see the issues that arise daily for people the length and breadth of the country. The examination of the allocation, the impacts and outputs, and, critically, the outcomes, is taken very seriously by this committee and it will engage with the Department on improving performance budgeting. I call on the Minister to make some brief opening remarks.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le foireann an choiste as cuireadh a thabhairt dom a bheith leo inniu chun na Meastacháin Breise don Roinn Coimirce Sóisialaí a chur os a gcomhair.

The Department of Social Protection now projects that overall social protection spending in 2025 will be €27.5 billion. This represents an increase of €625 million compared to the Revised Estimate for 2025. This consists of increased expenditure resulting from the Christmas bonus, as well as increased spending on certain schemes. This increased expenditure is partially mitigated by underspending on other schemes.

Not all of this €625 million is being funded through the Supplementary Estimate. There is a funding requirement of €349.7 million in respect of social insurance schemes, which is funded by the 2025 surplus in Social Insurance Fund income. This will more than cover the additional estimated expenditure on social insurance schemes.

In light of this, the total Supplementary Estimate necessary to address the shortfall in Vote 37 schemes for the current year amounts to €261.4 million. I am therefore requesting approval for this Supplementary Estimate. The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to address a shortfall in funding, which is required principally due to the payment of the Christmas bonus and also additional expenditure on Vote 37.

I am pleased to announce that the Christmas bonus will again be paid at a rate of 100% this December. The payment recognises the needs of people who are long-term financially dependent on their social welfare payment for all or most of their income, such as pensioners, people with disabilities and carers. The Christmas bonus will be paid to nearly 1.5 million people during the first week of December.

The cost of the Christmas bonus that is paid to people in receipt of payments from voted schemes is met entirely by the Exchequer. For 2025, for voted schemes, this cost is estimated to be €155.7 million.

As the Cathaoirleach is aware, there is a current-year surplus in the Social Insurance Fund. This means the Christmas bonus paid to those on social insurance schemes has been funded from the fund without recourse to funds from the Exchequer. Since the cost of the Christmas bonus was not included in the Department's original Estimates, a Supplementary Estimate is required to cover this additional but essential expenditure. All members will agree that the bonus provides much needed support at this very expensive time of the year.

In the briefing material provided to the committee, we have separately included, in table 4, the additional expense of the Christmas bonus, to be paid for each scheme in Vote 37, showing the effect of these supports on the requirement for a Supplementary Estimate. Table 4 also provides the outturn position on the various schemes prior to the payment of the bonus, which eases comparison between the original Estimate and the Supplementary Estimate. I hope the committee finds this approach useful but I am open to suggestions and ideas as to how we present this information. The balance of the Supplementary Estimate is required to meet a net overspend on the schemes and services delivered by my Department.

In June this year, a Revised Estimate of €26.9 billion was considered by the committee for projected 2025 social protection spending.

I have provided the committee with details of all schemes where the projected end of year Vote expenditure deviates from that projected in June. I will now go through some of the key issues to give a little bit more detail to the committee.

The position of the Social Insurance Fund in 2025 is again very healthy. As a result of our exceptionally strong labour market performance this year, the Social Insurance Fund's PRSI income to the end of 2025 is projected at almost €18.5 billion. Gross fund expenditure in 2025 is now projected to be €14 billion, including expenditure for the Christmas bonus in quarter 4, in respect of Social Insurance Fund schemes. This means that no Social Insurance Fund subvention is required from the Exchequer in 2025 and the Social Insurance Fund will carry forward an accumulated surplus, currently estimated at €13.6 billion into 2026. While this is welcome, it is also vital given the future financial pressures we face in terms of our changing demographics in the coming years, and those years are not that far away.

As stated, my Department is projecting that it will spend €27.5 billion in 2025, representing an increase of €625 million when compared with the Revised Estimate for 2025. Given the Social Insurance Fund income surplus, no Exchequer subvention is required to pay the additional €349.7 million in respect of social insurance schemes. However, €261.4 million of a Supplementary Estimate is required to meet the shortfall on Vote 37 schemes. This €261.4 million includes an additional €9.8 million required on administration due to pressure on the Department's pay budget and resource allocation due to increased demands for departmental schemes and services. An additional €268.7 million is required for schemes and services funded from Vote 37. Combined, these amount to €278.5 million, of which €17.1 million is offset by additional appropriations-in-aid receipts taken in by the Department.

All of this money is extremely important but it could not be invested or make a difference to people, families and communities throughout the country without the extraordinary work of the people who make up the Department of Social Protection. Since I joined the Department, I have seen at first hand the hard work being done day in, day out supporting people in every part of our country. I recognise the work of the Department's teams to ensure that, as we sit here today, payments are being made to hundreds of thousands of people. In addition to this, other work in the Department continues. It is a huge amount of work by a lot of incredibly dedicated people.

This work will continue with the delivery of the Christmas bonus and will be followed up with the launch of My Future Fund, which we have discussed in detail. Ireland will be the last country in the OECD to introduce auto-enrolment. Up to two thirds of workers in the private sector are not actively contributing to an occupational pension scheme or equivalent. My Future Fund will pave the way for around 750,000 workers to be brought into a retirement savings scheme for the first time. While today's attention is rightly on our financial figures, it is important to remember, as we all do in our daily work, the outcomes enabled by these payments. These outcomes include providing support throughout individuals' lives, reducing poverty and promoting dignity and respect, which are the real deliverables that matter.

I thank all of the budget team, those who are here with me and those who are in the Department. As we come to this stage of the year, I thank the committee for its professionalism, courtesy and dedication on behalf of all they represent and for our engagement. I thank the Cathaoirleach, the clerk and the team also. I thank the members for the opportunity and I look forward to taking questions.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and his team for being here this morning. I join the Minister in commending the staff in the Department more generally and specifically the staff in his section. During my time as spokesperson we have found them to be incredibly helpful and always willing to offer a briefing and to answer questions. As they say, I want to associate myself with the remarks made by the Minister.

I have a small few questions. As the Minister said, we have no right to veto it and it would be a very stupid politician who would come in here and veto the Christmas bonus anyway. We do not tend to do that. I have a couple of questions based on the information provided and the Minister's opening statement. He referred to overspends partially mitigated by underspending in other schemes. Will he give us an overview of the schemes where there was an underspend and perhaps provide a little bit of information as to why this was? I ask him the same regarding areas where there was an overspend and to account for this if he can.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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One of the key underspends is a projected €51 million underspend on the school meals scheme. This is due to a lower number of new schools joining the scheme in 2025 than was anticipated. The Department of education, for which we provide funding to operate the school meals scheme, changed the procurement guidelines this year to ensure the most rigorous standards of food safety were applied. The implementation of these guidelines has delayed an onboarding - a word I hate, but it keeps coming up everywhere-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it is awful.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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It has delayed launching the scheme in new schools. We are working through all of these at present, trying to make sure all schools will have hot school meals. I think we are confident that all that want it will have it by the end of this year.

As the Deputy knows, regarding the overall issue, we have employed and funded a dietician who is based in the Department of Health and I am expecting to receive a report from this dietician in the coming weeks on the nutritional element of school meals and food waste, which are the issues that keep coming back to us.

Expenditure on the supplementary welfare allowance is approximately €26 million below the Revised Estimate. This is due to fewer recipients than were estimated and the demand-led nature of the scheme. I have asked the officials to look at this and interrogate it more. It is something that surprised me from what I know about our daily work. It is something I will be watching with regard to how it has arisen.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister might share this with us when he gets the results.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I will. I also make the point we are still investing significantly in the supplementary welfare allowance. I want to make sure there is not something there that is blocking people getting it. These are the two main issues.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I will get to the overspend but regarding the supplementary welfare allowance, I am not the only person here who runs a constituency clinic, although sometimes I think I am the only one in my area, and we hear all the time about delays that happen. I am glad the Minister is looking into the underspend. It would be very valuable and I welcome that he will share the information with us. If we were all asked whether there was someone who came to our most recent clinic whom we felt would be eligible for the supplementary welfare allowance, we would all say there was. In terms of ensuring the money gets to people, is the Minister directing additional resources to ensure the delays are lessened? There are lengthy delays experienced, of up to six weeks in some instances. Is it the Minister's intention, or will he wait for the result of the investigation, to put more resources against this?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Including the Christmas bonus, we will invest about €111 million in supplementary welfare. It is still a very big area of expenditure. What is below profile is what we anticipated in June when we were here last. I would like to be very clear on this point. Like all of us, I want to make sure there are no blockages and that people are not waiting. We get parliamentary questions regularly from all Deputies on delays in this space. It is an area where we have considerably reduced appeal delays and I thank the team that has done very hard work on this. I want to make sure we have no delays arising in any other scheme as a consequence.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister referred to an additional €9.8 million required for administration. He might not have it here, and we will take it by email or however the Minister can give it to us, but will he give us a breakdown of the permanent or temporary nature of the employment and the grade, group and category? It would be interesting to see where the additional administrative resources are being deployed because there are delays in some areas.

I am sure people are doing their very best but if there are not enough people that is going to cause a delay.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I will provide the exact detail to the Deputy in future but I can assure her that the predominance of staff members in the Department are permanent. The vast majority of employees are permanent. I will give the Deputy the breakdown by email subsequent to this meeting.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Could the Minister issue the information to the clerk and we will ensure all members get it?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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100%.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. I commend his staff on the work they do. We had a meeting with the budgetary oversight committee yesterday and what it told us is that the lowest income families will be 4.3% worse off than they were last year. I know all these supports are welcome coming up to Christmas, but I worry about the 300,000 people who are in energy poverty already. More people are coming into the offices who are under pressure than ever before. Does the Minister think that more needs to be done for these and for single pensioners? Single pensioners have the same bills as two pensioners, bar food maybe, but they still have the same electricity costs, and mortgages if they have one, or whatever bills they have. The cost is nearly the same as a double pensioner. I know the Minister is going to say that they get the fuel allowance and other benefits, but I always feel that these people need a little bit more help.

The lowest 20% are going to be worse off than they were last year. These are mostly single parents. How do we give them a lift out of out of where they are?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What we have done in this budget is to move away from the temporary so-called one-off payments into more permanent payments. That is why we have increased the fuel allowance by €5 a week from January to €38 a week. That is an investment of nearly €58 million and will benefit 414,188 recipients. I am very happy that we expanded the fuel allowance to those on the working family payment. I have been very clear that it will be paid in March but backdated to January. It is really important that for the first time we have had an expansion of the remit of the fuel allowance in that space. The increases in the child support payment, which will affect the families on the lowest incomes, are really extraordinary in terms of previous increases - €16 for a child aged 12 and over and €8 for children under 12. That will directly benefit 330,000 children on the lowest of incomes.

The working family payment qualifying for the fuel allowance will assist over 43,000 families. That is an investment of €39 million. We have also increased the working family payment income threshold.

I have been very targeted. The Chairman said that it is a quarter of the budget of the country. It is still a tight budget and I have deliberately targeted benefits in it. We have also ensured that those on disability, who leave their disability payment to go into employment, will keep the fuel allowance for five years after they enter into that employment, as well as putting processes in place to make sure that somebody in receipt of a disability payment who gives up that payment to move into employment will get straight back on to their payment if for whatever reason it does not work out. That was a big deterrent.

There are loads of things that I would love to do, but in the context of this budget and of our new measures, I have been very focused on the fuel allowance and expanding it to the people on the working family payment. I do not disagree with Deputy Guirke on the impact on pensioners, in particular where there is one left. The expansion of the living alone allowance is something I will be looking at in next year's budget.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I am bringing up these things as the Minister has money left over. It could be another way to give these people a little bit of a lift out of where they are.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I will be very clear: we have no money left over. That is why I am here looking for an extra €625 million. The living alone allowance is something I will do a good bit of work on. I absolutely agree with the Deputy that the expenses are higher for somebody on their own. We need to look at that, but it will be in the context of budget 2027.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, and as the Minister said himself, the area of disabilities is very important.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We had a really good discussion here last night on the cost of disability payment. We are doing a lot of work on that. As I said, we are working with you, Chair, Deputy Keogh, and also with the housing committee on what that looks like.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I again thank the Minister and his officials. Could I also be associated with the words of thanks from colleagues to the Department's officials and everybody who works in the Department of Social Protection? I have always found them to be very good at providing replies and answering any queries I had. I know they go above and beyond. That is very important for us all to say. I would very much appreciate if the Minister could pass that on.

I have a couple of questions. The Minister spoke about the underspend on school meals. We have had discussions on school meals and where they are going at the moment. Along with a number of colleagues, I find this to be a brilliant scheme. There is no doubt that it gives a hot meal to those who need it most and to those who we might not recognise need it most, which is also very important. It is also a great employer for locals and especially in the area where I come from, it is a serious employer. What is the Department doing to try to encourage more schools to take up the option of a hot school meal? Has it done any additional advertising? Is it working closely with the Department of education? I am aware of some schools that are not taking up the offer. The Department of education and the Department of Social Protection should be working more closely together to ensure that every school takes up the scheme and that any issues that surround the use of hot school meals are debated and worked out. I have been contacted by a number of parents about various schools that are not taking up the option. More should be done to address that because, at the end of the day, this is a great initiative and it is one that I have supported since its inception.

It will not be the first time we have spoken about my concerns on the supplementary welfare allowance. I have raised community welfare officers previously with the Minister. I refer to the number of community welfare officers that we have in the system and the fact that it is more centralised. This is a backward and retrograde step. This is not the first time the Minister has heard this from me. Now, it is much more difficult for people who need a supplementary welfare payment to get it. The community welfare officers that I deal with are excellent, but there are too few of them and they are not accessible in the way they were in previous times. When I came into politics first – I am sure it may be the same with colleagues here - you could go along to the community welfare officer, sit down and discuss your case and then you would get a result and that result was fair in all cases. My understanding is that what is happening now is that when you make an application it is sent to a central office, maybe in Sligo, and it has to be processed there before a community welfare officer sees it, and then it works it back through the system. That is wrong because we are losing the community touch and the personal touch. The fact that we have a €26 million underspend is a result of that. I would love to hear the comments of the Minister and his officials on that because in my daily work I see there has been a complete change in the community welfare officer system, one that has not worked for those that need it most.

Perhaps the Minister could also mention the exceptional needs payment and where we are with the budget on that as well. The supplementary welfare allowance is definitely an issue for me, and for many colleagues here.

I want to use the opportunity as well to briefly mention two issues. The first is to ask the Minister and the Department to look again at increasing the age for receipt of the domiciliary care allowance from 16 to 18. Only this week I had two cases where families are going to the nth degree with their 16-year-olds to try to prove that they have a disability. That is wrong. In one of those cases it is a lifetime disability and in the other case it is something that is very hard to define, but it is something the child will have for a long time.

I want to talk to the Minister again about the fuel allowance. I know he is going to talk to me about the composition of households and targeting, but the people who I am dealing with who are, unfortunately, losing their fuel allowance are those that we need to target and support.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Wall. First, in relation to hot school meals, every primary school is now eligible for the scheme. It is a matter for the board of management to make that call. We do have a hot school meals working group with the Department of education, and we also have people from the Department of Health on board. It overseas the scheme and it meets regularly to ensure that everything is in place. For instance, our dietitian is working with that group and looking at nutritional standards.

As I said, we will have that report by the end of this year. This year, we also introduced, as part of the working group, a school meals holiday hunger programme on a pilot basis. We used that with the Department of Education and Youth. The pilot supports about 40,000 vulnerable children with very complex needs throughout the summer period.

Expenditure on the school meals programme in 2023, for the full year, was €108.7 million. We have estimated that up until the end of October 2025 expenditure is €196.8 million. We are definitely spending and investing the money. We want to work with each school but, ultimately, it is a matter for each board of management to make that call. I can assure Members that it is one area that takes more of my time than most within the Department to try to iron out a lot of problems, particularly that we have all discussed individually over the last three months. We are working through that.

Deputy O'Reilly previously highlighted the role that meals on wheels could play. We have actually done a lot of work with local meals on wheels. The Chair will be aware of the really good programme in Duhallow, which is provided by local groups. That is actually what I want.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I prefer local companies, local food and local suppliers to be providing their local school. That is what I like to see encouraged.

On CWOs, I am working on that. I do not disagree entirely. The CWOs do fantastic work and as has been said, we are very lucky with the CWOs across County Mayo. The challenge, in terms of the formal way of doing things, however, is that when they are going around, it can be hard for somebody to get them and catch up with them. The challenge is to strike a balance between geographical spread and availability and ensuring that they are there in the Intreo office or via the local Intreo office. I am working through all those issues. I suspect that most Deputies have had similar experiences and we will engage with them around that.

On domiciliary care being available from 16 to 18 years, as Members will know DCA is a monthly non-means tested payment for the parent or guardian of a child who is 16 years. We will increase the allowance by €20 to bring the total sum up to €380, from next January. The reason DCA currently ceases when a child reaches 16 years is that it aligns with the age of eligibility for disability allowance. The thinking behind that is if it is a lifelong disability then that person can apply for DA in his or her own right from the age of 16. The DA application can be made three months ahead of the 16th birthday to ensure there is a continuity of payment. Proposals were made previously to extend the upper age limit for DCA to 18 and change the disability allowance at the same time. They are something that are worth further consideration but they are not being considered at the moment.

We have discussed the fuel allowance and the household composition previously, and I think that was last Thursday. As of now I need to target those incomes. This year, we are expanding the fuel allowance into the working family payment. That is one of the biggest expansions of it in some time and in this remit. That is the trajectory I would go.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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We need to revisit the issue of the community welfare office and I would welcome if the Chair could arrange a discussion on the topic.

On domiciliary care, I will send details of some cases to the Minister because we need to consider the matter more urgently than stated in his reply. I have received many cases, and I am sure many of my colleagues have as well, about the complexity and the problems experienced by people aged 16 when applying for a disability allowance compared with a domiciliary care allowance. I will forward the cases and ask that Department officials give them consideration.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Without impinging on the work of the committee, it would be useful for the committee to have a discussion on CW.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister and all his officials for coming in today. I welcome the opportunity to examine these accounts.

I join the Minister in his remarks about how important the outcomes these payments are in supporting individuals, "reducing poverty and promoting dignity and respect, which are the real deliverables that matter." I also congratulate the Minister's team in the Department for supporting people and doing all the work that they do.

This is my first time to scrutinise these accounts so I might ask some very simplistic questions, if the Minister will forgive me, to get a sense of things. From my understanding of the Minister's remarks and all the information that has been given, there is a €4.5 billion surplus in the Social Insurance Fund this year. The Minister said there is a cumulative standing total of €13.6 billion. What happens to that surplus? Where does it go? If it is saved, does it accumulate interest at an interbank rate? Finally, who decides what to do with it?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The NTMA manages the surplus and the overall fund in terms of investing it to get a return. I was here in 2010 - when I look around I see Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher - and that surplus can change very quickly. The whole purpose is to build up the surplus and build up the fund. The difference between now and 2010 is that it is very healthy but, on the negative side, demographics are also changing. As of today, we have four workers for everybody over the age of 66. By 2050, which is not that far away, we will have two workers, so we have got to make sure that we keep the surplus and SIF as healthy as possible. Obviously the fund is always going to be the first one that will change at any stage of a downturn. My officials are very focused on keeping it healthy and ensuring we have the best possible return in terms of any surplus.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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That brings me to my second question, which is that there is some element of that surplus being put towards these Estimates. I agree with the Minister in general in respect of being countercyclical in terms of using the surplus for the downturn in the future but the Minister is using some small element of the surplus in this year to cover the Supplementary Estimates. How is that decision made? Who decides the amount of the surplus that could be used in the current year or in the current upturn, as we might put it?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What we are doing is using a small amount for schemes that are actually funded from the Social Insurance Fund. For instance, contributory pension people who have paid into the fund are getting paid out of the fund. That is what this very small element of the Christmas bonus is being used so that it is aligned to where it is funded from. It would be normal practice.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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So, in general, if there is ever any deficit within the Social Insurance Fund, the policy of the Department would be to use the surplus against that deficit.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. There have been times where it was in deficit. So the Exchequer had to make up the difference on that occasion.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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That is my point. The surplus is not necessarily going back to the Exchequer but when it is in deficit, the intervention has to come from the Exchequer.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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No. The Social Insurance Fund is a stand-alone fund into which people's money goes. It is paid out then in terms of pensions, demand-led schemes and jobseeker's pay-related benefit comes out of it. There are very strict rules about it and that is why we are stripping it out here on this occasion.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I understand that but I want to be clear that the subvention is only one way and is never the other way. Is that the case?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry?

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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The subvention is only one way. If the fund is in deficit then there will be a subvention from the Exchequer. If the fund is in surplus then there would never be an allocation.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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That is correct, yes. That is why we do not like it in deficit.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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Yes, fair enough. On the Supplementary Estimates that actually come from the Exchequer in terms of the allowances, is that determined by the Government or the Department of Finance or the Department of public expenditure? How does the Minister get that money? Why is it allocated?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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They are generally demand-led schemes. That is how we determine. Demand determines the number of people who take up the schemes. We try to estimate what the demand for any scheme will be at the beginning of any year and during the year through demographics and patterns of demand. For instance, when I was here in June we would have been estimating the six-month demand based on demand patterns from January to June. We then engage with the Department of public expenditure. We have very robust engagement with the Department of public expenditure throughout the process, particularly the run in to a budget. My team of officials here have very regular engagements with that Department around where our day-to-day expenditure is going, where our future expenditure might be going and on any future schemes that we are planning.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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That is helpful. Does the Minister plan on paying the Christmas bonus next year?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to pay it this year. That is one of the things about the Christmas bonus. It is generally paid. There have been some years it has not been paid. It is paid on the basis of the Exchequer standing and this committee is generous enough to give me the go ahead to pay it.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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First, that is not our role.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I never anticipate.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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Second, I would not be.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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It is year to year and the Government approves it. Normally, it is approved on budget morning in terms of the Cabinet.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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The reason I ask is that, on every line item, the Estimate is lower than what it actually transpired to be because of this Christmas bonus payment. That is perfectly fine and I am very glad the Christmas bonus is being paid, but from a perspective of financial planning, it seems like something that could be planned for on a year-to-year basis like every other budget item.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The precise amount, because it is demand led, it will be right up to when we pay it.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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The entire Department is demand led and we still budget for that.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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That is always a challenge. Because it is demand led, there are some schemes that are way ahead of what we anticipated and some that are under. I made the point yesterday evening about carers that, as demographics are changing, that is a demand-led scheme that will get much bigger in terms of expenditure whereas other schemes will go lower.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I understand the point. When was the last time the Christmas bonus was not funded?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I think it was 2010 or 2011.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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So there have been 15 years of it being funded but not being budgeted for.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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That has always been the way with the Christmas bonus going back to long before any of us were here. It is an important scheme. It is generally paid. I hope we never get back to a situation where it cannot be paid. It would be very imprudent to say it would be paid because one does not know what is going to happen over the course of the year, but it is being paid this year, which is the most important thing.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Hayes is out of time. We have to move on to Deputy Gallagher.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and his team for the presentation and for giving us an outline. I compliment all of his staff in the offices that deal with TDs. If those facilities were not available, it would cost his Department a fortune. I recall the days when the only opportunity we had to ask questions was by way of parliamentary questions. We know the cost of all those. Apart from the fact that the service is available, they are always very kind, courteous and helpful and respond quickly, whether to a telephone call or email. I compliment them. They are behind the scenes. We do not know their faces but we must give them credit.

I refer to reviews and appeals. It is very clever that those who are refused allowances can request a review and an appeal at the same time. A review is responded to very quickly but the appeal takes a long time. Will the Minister let us know the reason for the long delays in appeals? It can take a considerable amount of time before the file can go from Longford to Dublin. Perhaps it is the complexities and the shortage of staff.

Social welfare payments are vitally important because they are paid to families who have no other source of income. They could not survive without them. I have no doubt about the Christmas bonus next year. I know it will come. I was here all through those years. I have no doubt in the world that if Deputy Calleary is Minister, he will insist those payments be made.

I find there is a difficulty with the carer's support grant, which is paid once a year. It is paid on a particular date providing they receive carer's benefit, carer's allowance or, in some circumstances, other allowances. I am aware of cases where, if the person died the day before the allowance was due, they did not receive it. I would appreciate if the Minister would have a look at that and that there would be a pro rata payment. It is fairly harsh. I am aware of examples where officials fully understand but they say that is the legislation and that is it. Perhaps the Minister might look at a pro rata payment. When a person has been a carer for 51 weeks and the person dies, they lose the €1,700 which is quite a generous payment.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. All of us are very lucky to have the Oireachtas lines to the Department of Social Protection. I am very proud of them as Minister but I always used them as a Deputy. Other Departments could learn from ours in relation to that. I thank everybody who staffs them. I will give the Deputy the up-to-date position on appeals. This year, we finalised 44,307 appeals up to the end of October. At the end of October 2024, we had dealt with 22,610 appeals. That is a 96% increase in productivity. Pending appeal volumes have been more than halved. There were 22,000 in January and we are down to 11,000 now. We continue to work our way through that. We have appointed extra appeals officers. The head of appeals and her team have done huge work on IT and changes in their office. I thank them for that. We are very focused on schemes that may be slower than others. We put a lot of focus this year on domiciliary care appeals.

I agree about reviews. It is a very quick way of getting things dealt with. The important thing on appeals, and I keep diving through some of this, is the information provided. We need to give the most possible information. We know that as Oireachtas Members, particularly where the appeal involves the need for medical knowledge. We will continue to work in relation to that.

On the carer's support grant, I will come back to the Deputy. It is paid at the end of June. I will come back to him about the pro rata side of it. It can be difficult to measure that. Generally it is full-time care for at least six months. I see that there can be occasions when that person's care is not properly recognised in a circumstance of bereavement. I will engage with the Deputy on that. If he is aware of specific cases, we will work him on them.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Like all the other public representatives have done today, I congratulate the Minister and Department on the service provided to public representatives. This specific contact lines and emails per scheme are very beneficial. The Minister mentioned it himself: other Government Departments could learn from the Department of Social Protection when it comes to responding to requests from public representatives.

On the hot school meals programme and the underspend on it, from my understanding in my constituency, a lot of the schools have had a challenge in getting it together for the operation of the programme in terms of setting up a room for it and perhaps setting up an additional ESB installation. There has been a challenge in trying to get schools involved in that process. The Minister said he hopes that, by the end of 2025, all schools that have been approved and willing to operate that will be in a position to do it. It might be nice to get the figures for how many primary schools are currently accepting the hot school meals programme and how many people have signed up and are still waiting to get it.

It would be important to have a discussion on the supplementary welfare allowance and the role of the community welfare officer, CWO. I will discuss this with the clerk and perhaps we could arrange that for a future meeting in the new year.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair for his good wishes to the team and Department. The most up-to-date figures I have are that, at the end of the 2024-2025 academic year, there were 2,740 schools and 467,680 pupils benefiting from school meals. From September 2025, all primary schools were eligible. That is 3,200 schools and 550,000 children, but as I said, in terms of schools joining the scheme, there have been challenges. It has evolved very quickly. We have challenged the system but it is important in it evolving that we keep an eye that it is done in a quality manner and there is nothing in rolling it out that compromises food safety. That is where the delays are. There are no new rules. Some people are putting it out there that these are new rules; they are not. They are existing rules being implemented. There have been a lot of good and interesting local solutions that we have discussed that we are trying to see if they could work in other parts of the country. We will give the committee the figures towards February or March when we have a good sense of where things are at.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I would like some clarification on the hot meals and the My Future Fund.

If I estimate correctly, there is about €60 million net back to the Department of Social Protection because there was not as much take-up of the hot meals and the My Future Fund launch was postponed until 1 January. Is that correct?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of money coming back, it is money that we had estimated. I would not like to think that we are getting that whole pile of money back. It is Estimates that were not spent. As the Deputy can see, there are other areas we were able to spend it in. We are very focused on ensuring every primary school student has access to a hot school meal and that is taking up huge time for the Department's team. We do work closely with education. Hopefully, we will be in a position to have more of it spent.

In relation to My Future Fund, the projected underspend is about €13 million. That will have to be paid at some stage in the future. It is money that would have been paid out. The actual saving there is the State contribution that would have been paid had My Future Fund launched from the end of September. Obviously, we can use that in other areas now. I am very focused on getting the message of My Future Fund out there and getting out as much information as we can. As I said, we are able to allocate money into other schemes within the Department that are overspending. That is included in the €17 million figure.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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Let me just congratulate the Minister's Department on all the work it is doing on the hot school meals programme. It is absolutely critical we do that well. I thank the Minister for all the work being done on it. On both of these issues, we estimate that an extra €60 million compared with this year will be spent on those programmes next year because they were not done to full completion this year. Is that correct?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the school meals, for instance, if we get to a situation where we have the 3,200 schools and the 550,000 children, when compared with last year's academic year and the 2,740 schools and 467,680 children, there will clearly be extra expenditure. There has been a big increase in expenditure in relation to that. We will be back to the committee in February to go through how our year is going and the Revised Estimates. We will be able to give a much better picture then, particularly on the hot school meals, because we have a lot of work going on with schools around the country. We will have a much clearer picture. Hopefully, at the end of February, we will have a good sense of where we are at with My Future Fund. It is still to go live but by the end of February, we will be able to give members a good flavour of the first few months of it.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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On the contracted public employment service, it may be interesting to get a sense of that. I know there were performance indicators that led to certain levels of overspend later. I think that was about €11 million. I do not have a good familiarity with those performance indicators but it would be worth us scrutinising it in the committee if the Department would facilitate that.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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We will have an opportunity to discuss the spring agenda in further meetings.

I thank the Minister and his officials for their contributions today and for providing the committee with the briefings in advance of today's meeting.